45-70 Factory Ammo Question

[luv2safari]

I have an 1873 Cadet model trapdoor Springfield in good condition...no rust or corrosion. I had shot some Wisconsin Cartridge Corp. 300gr JHP ammo I got with the gun many years ago, and everything worked fine. I know little about the old trapdoors but might try to take a deer with it if I draw a NV resident tag this season.

My question is about some Winchester factory ammo I was given. I have a partial box of Win X4570H 300gr JHP and a partial box of Win SPG4570 300gr Partition Gold. I assume the off the shelf factory ammo is safe for trapdoors, but I would like opinions from members with a bunch of Trapdoor experience.

I also have dies and new/fired brass and would appreciate some pet trapdoor loads. Thanks...

 

[Slamfire]

Unless the box says not to use in old vintage 45/70's, it should be safe. There is all sorts of +P 45/70 around that is not safe in a black powder Trapdoor.

I really don't know why anyone uses any other powder than AA5744 in these big, low pressure cases. According to Accurate Arms, this powder was developed for the 45/120 case, I think they found an existing powder and it worked well, regardless of advertising hype, it works well.

You can see the velocities I measured during load testing and in several other 45/70 rifles.

45/70 Martini Henry 26" Shilen Barrel. The action is original British military action, blackpowder era.

405 LRN 26.5gr AA5744 R-P cases WLR
29-Apr-04 T = 80 °F

Ave Vel = 1294 
Std Dev = 14
ES = 40  
Low = 1274
High = 1314
Number rounds = 15

Group Size, 100 yards, Very . good


405 LRN 27.0gr AA5744 R-P cases WLR
24-Mar-04 T = 70 °F

Ave Vel = 1284 
Std Dev = 23
ES = 80  
Low = 1263
High = 1343
N = 12


405 LRN 27.5gr AA5744 R-P cases WLR
15-Apr-05 T = 75 °F

Ave Vel = 1363 
Std Dev = 25
ES = 97  
Low = 1298
High = 1395
N = 20


Group Size good offhand at 100 yards

Winchester BPCR M1885 30" Badger barrel

Ladder Sights: 5 graduations per 1/4 inch major.

1/4 inch major is 25 MOA, 1 grad is 5 MOA, 1 Vernier is 1 MOA

405 LRN 27.5gr AA5744 R-P cases WLR trimmed 2.085"
29 May 2010 T = 89 °F

Ave Vel = 1324
Std Dev = 9
ES = 26
High = 1338
Low = 1312
N = 6

I have not slugged the barrel of this M1873, but it leaded something awful till I applied a huge amount of external grease to the bullets. Accuracy was still awful. I think the barrel is too large large for commercial cast bullets which are 0.458" I read somewhere that these tubes are 0.460" I was thinking of paper patching, but that went no where.

M1873 Springfield Trapdoor 1884 rebuild 27" sight radius

405 LRN 27.5gr AA5744 R-P cases WLR trimmed 2.085"
14 Aug 2014 T = 78 °F 

Ave Vel = 1302 
Std Dev = 11
ES = 26  
High = 1315
Low = 1289
N = 5

First round 15.5" high, rest, 19.5 to 23" high at 100 yards

Ballistic calculator: 100 yd zero, 25" drop at 200 yds, 82" drop at 300 yds

405 LRN 27.5gr AA5744 R-P cases WLR trimmed 2.085"
Heavily greased with Lubriplate 130A 

14 Aug 2014 T = 78 °F

Ave Vel = 1346 
Std Dev = 15
ES = 38  
High= 1371
Low = 1333
N = 5

If you use commercial cast bullets, I recommend you grease the heck out of them. Mine fouled badly until I externally greased them. Messy, but it cut out the lead fouling.

You can see that I used so much grease that grease was extruded down the sides of the shell casings, into the action.

Ungreased fired cases on left, greased, fired cases on right. Absolutely nothing bad happened outside of grease in the action. Considering the lead fouling reduction, I can live with that.

 

[luv2safari]

Thank you.

I will shoot jacketed bullets to avoid a lot of clean up, not being a cast bullet fanatic.

 

[Slamfire]

Thank you.

I will shoot jacketed bullets to avoid a lot of clean up, not being a cast bullet fanatic.

I would not shoot jacketed bullets through a blackpowder era barrel. It is my recollection that others have stated these old barrels will experience excessive wear with jacketed bullets. At the time these rifles were in issue, they only used lead bullets. It is probable the barrels are wrought iron, and if they are, they are very soft. Even if they are an early steel, they did not need a very hard or very strong steel with blackpowder.

 

[Charlie98]

I will shoot jacketed bullets to avoid a lot of clean up, not being a cast bullet fanatic.

I would agree with Slam... stick with cast bullets.

 

[luv2safari]

Thanks to all you shooters. I have shot firearms for 69 years, but my experience with cast bullets is limited to a time I shot 38spl Peters ammo in my Ruger Blackhawk 357 many years ago and scrubbed lead forever after 1/2 a box.

Any and all advice about what and how with this trapdoor is appreciated. I would rather make it a wall hanger than scrub lead again. The bore looks pretty good, although the rifling is shallow.

In essence...HELP!

 

[MEHavey]

AA5744 in these big, low pressure cases. According to Accurate Arms, this powder was developed for the 45/120 case

THAT I didn't know.
(I've always relegated myself to BP/PP card wads/grease kookies and wiping/blowing between shots -- PITA.)
`May have go back and haul Gertrude out of the closet and retry w/ standard grooved/PC'd again

 

[Charlie98]

THAT I didn't know.

There's a small gaggle of powders that work very well with cast bullets in the rifle... AA5744, for sure, but also IMR4198, H4198, and Reloder 7. There are a few others, but that's the meat and potatoes.

In essence...HELP!

I used to be afraid of cast bullets in the rifle... for the reason you mentioned. I dipped my toe in with, of all things, my Browning 71 in .348WCF... but quickly expanded to the .45-70, the .30-30, and even .308. I do not cast, so I'm at the mercy of commercially cast bullets. There are a few rules of thumb...

1) The bullet must match the bore. I had to hunt for the right bullet for a Savage 99 in .30-30 that I had... abysmal accuracy, and leading... until I moved to the .311" bullet. You can slug the barrel, but a little trial and error will get it done as well.

2) I'm lucky, I haven't had a rifle with bore issues, but I would likely stay away from softer bullets. Most of my cast rifle bullets are in the 18BHN range and work well. The bullets I push over 1800fps get gas checks. With the shallow rifling on your bore, I don't know what the hot setup would be for you...

Commercially cast bullets can be a mixed bag... some are too hard, and/or some can be too small for your rifle's bore. I tend to spend the money on good cast bullets for my rifles... I get most of them from Montana Bullet Works. They are one of the few people that make gas checked .349" bullets for my Browning, the .311" bullets for the .30-30 and .308 (another Savage 99...) and just very good quality bullets for the .45-70. No, they are not cheap, but you get what you pay for. I've had good results with the inexpensive LaserCast 350grn FN bullet in the .45-70, but their .308 bullets were a mess (in my rifles... see rule #1) so you can get it done for cheap... maybe. There are also paper-patched bullets... which I know nothing about.

 

[luv2safari]

I have some R 7, brass, primers, and dies, and a little bit of Trail Boss I use for plinking loads with .365 Makarov bullets in my 9.3X72R and 9.3X62, so I'll do some shopping for cast bullets. I just now looked up 300gr cast loads in my Lee 2nd edition data book. It seems that 30-31, IMR & H4895, and IMR 4064 work well, and I have some of all those.

 

[luv2safari]

Has anyone tried these bullets?

ACME 45-70(.458) 350gr RN FP BULLET COATED 100/BX - Graf & Sons

ACME Bullet Company’s "Lipstick" bullets are cast bullets with HiTek coating. All bullets are cast with 92-6-2 alloy then coated with HiTek coating that molecularly bonds to the bullet as it cures. This process completely encapsulates the bullet. The HiTek coating prevents lead to bore...

www.grafs.com

 

[ms6852]

Has anyone tried these bullets?

ACME 45-70(.458) 350gr RN FP BULLET COATED 100/BX - Graf & Sons

ACME Bullet Company’s "Lipstick" bullets are cast bullets with HiTek coating. All bullets are cast with 92-6-2 alloy then coated with HiTek coating that molecularly bonds to the bullet as it cures. This process completely encapsulates the bullet. The HiTek coating prevents lead to bore...

www.grafs.com

I've never tried them. I have a Pedersoli Sharps that I like to use 405 grainers and the 500+ grainers. At first I bought the Remington 300 gr and Hornady 250 and the rifle did not like it. If anything, factory rounds that shoots good in my Sharps are the Cowboy Choice loads or the Ultramax Cowboy loads. Which would be great for your trapdoor. I believe the 45/70 shines with 405 grainers. As you know every rifle will be different.

 

[Jim Watson]

Unless the box says not to use in old vintage 45/70's, it should be safe. There is all sorts of +P 45/70 around that is not safe in a black powder Trapdoor.

I really don't know why anyone uses any other powder than AA5744 in these big, low pressure cases. According to Accurate Arms, this powder was developed for the 45/120 case, I think they found an existing powder and it worked well, regardless of advertising hype, it works well.

SAAMI maximum is 28000 psi but even Buffalo Bore agrees that 18000 is plenty for the Trapdoor Springfield.
Nobody else is publishing their pressures but I have HEARD that the old standard 405 gr bullets are usually loaded lighter than the 300 gr "express" types.

The main reason not to use AA5744 is a lack of it for sale now.
I agree that it was selected, not manufactured for "Nitro for Black" loading. I suspect it is like many Hodgdons, originally a surplus powder, made fresh after that was used up. One source speculated that it was surplus IMR 4475 and AA just reversed the number.

I used to have a big AA manual. It said that they established BP replacement loads by firing BP in their pressure barrel, usually getting about 20000 psi, then not showing smokeless data above that.

While I would not shoot jacketed bullets in the old guns to amount to anything, killing one deer just to say you had isn't likely to wear it out.

Coated bullets would certainly be worth a try. Finding them at the (usually large) groove diameter of a Springfield might be hard. Missouri Bullet Co. sizes to .459" which might get by. Bear Creek says they will provide larger diameter. Even with coating, I would lube the grooves. But I would not butter the whole thing like Slamfire. That was not necessary in my .38-55 and .40-65 and they were shooting black powder.

Take care of that 1873 Cadet rifle, they only made 5000 of them.

 

[jmr40]

Remington shows 2 different loads with 405 gr bullets. One is 1300 fps for older guns, the one at 1600 fps is for modern guns. But they don't show the 1300 fps load as available. If I had an original gun, I'd be very cautious with any factory load unless you can find something that specifically says it is safe in those older guns.

 

[Chief TC]

I have an 1873 Cadet model trapdoor Springfield in good condition...no rust or corrosion. I had shot some Wisconsin Cartridge Corp. 300gr JHP ammo I got with the gun many years ago, and everything worked fine. I know little about the old trapdoors but might try to take a deer with it if I draw a NV resident tag this season.

My question is about some Winchester factory ammo I was given. I have a partial box of Win X4570H 300gr JHP and a partial box of Win SPG4570 300gr Partition Gold. I assume the off the shelf factory ammo is safe for trapdoors, but I would like opinions from members with a bunch of Trapdoor experience.

I also have dies and new/fired brass and would appreciate some pet trapdoor loads. Thanks...

I recommend learning to load black powder. It will shoot better anyway.

 

[luv2safari]

I recommend learning to load black powder. It will shoot better anyway.

How about Pyrodex or Triple 7? I'll shoot the trapdoor very little and want something safer than BP to store.

I have some 45 year old BP, some FF and some FFF.

 

[StrawHat]

How about Pyrodex or Triple 7? I'll shoot the trapdoor very little and want something safer than BP to store.

I have some 45 year old BP, some FF and some FFF.

The two fakes you mention are more corrosive than the original powder. I don’t use them.

Black powder is a learning curve. You need a good lube, a good bullet, and patience. Do you know anyone local who uses black powder? There would be you initial source of answers.

I like the Springfield Single Shot Rifle and have had many. I still have two. My 50 get the most use. A Cadet will be lighter weight so consider
adding the carbine load for it.

Kevin

 

[Chief TC]

I agree with StrawHat. The BP substitutes can be more problematic; however, some people like them and find success with them. My experience with my Trapdoor and reading about others, they perform best with BP and the right sized cast bullet. I think this is especially true for a well used specimen. Storing a couple lbs of BP in your gun powder locker is safe. Yes, BP is explosive but it stores safely just like smokeless. BP is cheaper too and easier to clean up than substitutes. You can buy a variety of cast bullets from various makers. 405gr or 500gr, etc. .458 or .459, etc. Since you already have 2F, you can start with trying 65gr. Try just pouring it in straight, no wad and seat the bullet to the proper depth. My easiest and fastest reloads are for my Trapdoor. Prime, pour powder into case, seat the lubed bullet.

 

[Jim Watson]

Salvaged from burnt out house after The Incident of 2010.
I don't worry about storing moderate quantities of flammables.

 

[StrawHat]

When I was heavily into the 45-70, I found the Trapdoors shot best with the largest bullet I could fit in the case and chamber. Two of mine ( one rifle, one carbine) needed .461 to function at their best.

The Lee hollow based bullet can mitigate some of those problems if cast soft enough to expand.

Kevin

 

[Chief TC]

When I was heavily into the 45-70, I found the Trapdoors shot best with the largest bullet I could fit in the case and chamber. Two of mine ( one rifle, one carbine) needed .461 to function at their best.

The Lee hollow based bullet can mitigate some of those problems if cast soft enough to expand.

Kevin

There are some huge bores out there. Somewhat surprisingly, mine loves .459 and it shoots terrible with any other sized cast bullet. The barrel is severely pitted but everything looks good. I have done well in military single shot and cast bullet competitions out to 500yds with it.

 

[StrawHat]

There are some huge bores out there. Somewhat surprisingly, mine loves .459 and it shoots terrible with any other sized cast bullet. The barrel is severely pitted but everything looks good. I have done well in military single shot and cast bullet competitions out to 500yds with it.

That’s it exactly, it all depends on what your rifle prefers.

Kevin

 

[luv2safari]

The two fakes you mention are more corrosive than the original powder. I don’t use them.

Black powder is a learning curve. You need a good lube, a good bullet, and patience. Do you know anyone local who uses black powder? There would be you initial source of answers.

I like the Springfield Single Shot Rifle and have had many. I still have two. My 50 get the most use. A Cadet will be lighter weight so consider
adding the carbine load for it.

Kevin

Years ago I shot a few deer with a 54cal TC Renegade and used FFg and Pyrodex. I never used any BP cartridge guns, however, except for a couple of older drillings using BP shotshells. Nobody around here shoots BP cartridge guns; it's just not popular here. The only BP that gets used is for some shoot outs staged for tourists on occasion.

I've decided to go another way this season and apply for a BP deer season tag. There are a bit better odds to draw a resident BP deer tag, and this year is probably the last I'll be able to get out and walk to any extent. Had I not bought a small piece of property for the whole family to enjoy recently, I'd have out of state hunting funds, but family comes first, and I enjoy the mountain property. I've punched a lot of tickets over the years and have no regrets at all.

Chances are that nobody in the family will draw a resident deer tag. The deer are WAY down from an already dismal population last year. Thanks mining and wild horsey huggers. The over-protection of the FERAL horse is decimating deer and antelope populations here. We need a season on them and the starry-eyed knuckleheads who protect them.

 

[Pat Riot]

I don’t know if you’re interested in traditional loads for your trapdoor, but HSM makes a 45-70 Cowboy load (factory ammo) that has a 405 grain LRNFP bullet and the velocity matches the old BP round at 1375 FPS. I never experienced leading with this ammo in my Henry single shot.

 

[luv2safari]

I don’t know if you’re interested in traditional loads for your trapdoor, but HSM makes a 45-70 Cowboy load (factory ammo) that has a 405 grain LRNFP bullet and the velocity matches the old BP round at 1375 FPS. I never experienced leading with this ammo in my Henry single shot.

I saw that it was the traditional ammo, but I didn't see any in stock anywhere.

 

[Oldschool shooter]

I used to hunt with an original Trapdoor carbine, 1879 vintage. It worked fine with the factory Remington 405 gr. load. Took my first and only bear with it in 1980.