45-70 govt vs 500 smith and wesson

[saturno_v]

Of course, your use of energy like an ammo marketing piece overstates the real difference, but it's still a big difference.

The .45-70, introduced a quarter century before smokeless powder was common, was never designed for really high pressures. That's one reason the commercial .475 Linebaugh isn't made from cut-down .45-70 brass like the initial experiments.

The .458 WAS designed for high pressures and modern powders.

And the .45-70 wasn't designed for elephants.

ArmedBear

That was exactly my point...it wasn't "marketing"
I did not state the well known and obvious..as I said and as you said, the 45-70 wasn't designed to stop elephants...the 458 Win Mag was..

I was simply responding to one of the poster silly stemement about some 45-70 loadings approaching 458 territory...not even close....

 

[ArmedBear]

saturno, you're missing my point.

Using energy as the only number is what makes the numbers sound like more than they are, that's all.

500 grains at 2200 fps vs. 400 grains at 2100 fps doesn't sound like nearly as big a difference as the energy comparison does. On anything short of an elephant, you probably won't be able to tell the difference, except on your shoulder (where energy really does play a gruesome part of the equation).

All of that just figures into the .500 vs. .45-70 question, where the .45-70 is a better rifle cartridge, but either way there's not a huge difference. Comparing a specialized revolver round and a 137 year old rifle round is sort of funny, if someone really wants the all-out most powerful round, anyway.

 

[Maverick223]

If dangerous game(wild hogs,large cats,african game) in involved go for the .500. If its just for fun go 45-70.

What? How is 500S&W better for dangerous game? The 500S&W can only be loaded (according to my handbook) to about the same energy as a anemic .45-70Govt. (trapdoor load), and will have a inferior sectional density and ballistic coefficient due to the larger caliber and equivalent (or lesser) mass. That said I don't believe either are good for large dangerous game (on the order of Cape Buff, Rhino, Hippo, Elephant, et al).

 

[ArmedBear]

The .45-70 works great for shooting buffalo, which are big ungulates, and, while they are dangerous for ranchers to handle in corrals, they generally don't lie in wait and attack like Cape Buffs would. Think of it more like hunting HUGE deer, than actual dangerous game. Bucks can kill you, too, if they want to, but deer hunting is not "dangerous game" hunting.

.45-70 is good for one-shot KILLS of large game. That doesn't mean one-shot STOPS of CHARGING large game like what Africa has in store.

The real dangerous game cartridges are designed to "put the smackdown" on big, aggressive animals at relatively close range. They are designed for maximum energy, penetration, slug size, and velocity.

The .45-70 is more of a manageable cartridge for hunting large game like buffalo or moose. It's been used as a general-purpose hunting round.

 

[saturno_v]

ArmedBear

I'm not missing your point

Between a 500 gr. at 2200 (a 458 can push it up to 2300) and a 400 gr. at 2100 there is a big difference in terms of energy (over 1500 ft/lb) and, having the same caliber, the 500 gr. has higher sectional density.

Put in this way, 25% more bullet weight at faster velocity......for the admirer of the momentum theory that is a big deal...

If you shoot an Elephant with both of them, let's say solid bullets, the 500 gr. will have more straight penetration abilities.

Would a bear or an Elk able to tell the difference?? Probably not....will Dumbo notice?? yes there is the chance he may survive the lighter slower slug.

 

[Maverick223]

I completely agree AB, the .45-70 is a great deer or larger rifle cartridge. It is also suitable for some dangerous game, such as bear and swine (not to include large game), and most large game, such as bison/American buffalo, water buffalo, caribou, et cetera (not to include dangerous species). It is not a large/dangerous game cartridge, and never will be, it simply does not have the case capacity to compete with African cartridges whilst maintaining a moderate pressure for easy extraction and reliability. The 500S&W is even less suitable as a large/dangerous game cartridge, for similar reasons.

 

[saturno_v]

What? How is 500S&W better for dangerous game? The 500S&W can only be loaded (according to my handbook) to about the same energy as a anemic .45-70Govt. (trapdoor load), and will have a inferior sectional density and ballistic coefficient due to the larger caliber and equivalent (or lesser) mass. That said I don't believe either are good for large dangerous game (on the order of Cape Buff, Rhino, Hippo, Elephant, et al).

Maverick

I don't know what your manual says but the original 45-70 trapdoor loads developed ~1600-1700 ft/lb at the muzzle from long barrel rifles.

The 500 S&W can approach 3000 ft/lb out of a revolver barrel (albeit a long one....10")

 

[saturno_v]

On a charging dangerous animal the "smackdown" is a CNS shot....no matter how you get there, the caliber, the velocity or whatever, that is the assured stop.

On a charging lion a 243 in the brain or the spine will stop him more than a 460 Weatherby to the guts.

What heavy for caliber blunt nose bullets give you is reliable straight penetration from a wider range of shooting angles.

Finally, as has been said over and over, bullet construction is a fundamental part of the equation

 

[Maverick223]

Maverick

I don't know what your manual says but the original 45-70 trapdoor loads developed ~1600-1700 ft/lb at the muzzle from long barrel rifles.

The 500 S&W can approach 3000 ft/lb out of a revolver barrel (albeit a long one....10")

Max load in .45-70Govt. 1873 Springfield "Trapdoor" (according to Lyman's 49th Ed.) is 500gr. at 1603fps, which equates to 2854 lb/ft of energy. Max 500gr. load in the 500S&W is 1515fps for 2549lb/ft (in a 15" bbl).

 

[saturno_v]

Maverick


The original 45-70 trapdoor load used 70 gr. (the name 45-70) of blackpowder behind a 405 gr. bullet for a muzzle velocity of 1350 fps, equivalent to 1638 ft/lb.

There was a reduced charge Army load too, using only 55 gr. of BP for a muzzle velocity of 1100 fps.

Buffalo hunters of the time were using heavier 500 gr. bullets in front of the same 70 gr. of BP.

The most common and safe load to be used in original Trapdoor rifle is the 405 gr. bullet at 1330 fps

The loads you mentioned can be safely used only in modern Trapdoor replicas.


The most powerful (in terms of muzzle energy) 500 S&W loads I found in the Hodgdon reload data center can develops 3120 ft/lb with a 370 gr. bullet out of a 10" barrel

Winchester makes a 400 gr. loads which develops 2877 ft/lb (10" pipe)

Double Tap sells a 350 gr. loads (ME 3032 ft/lb) and a 500 gr. load (ME 2500 ft/lb) both out of a 8,3" revolver barrel and SAAMI compliant.

 

[ArmedBear]

saturno, as I've said before, I've watched someone with an ORIGINAL Trapdoor with an original load, put a bullet straight through a buffalo.

You knock around your ft-lb. numbers as if they are really meaningful, but reality doesn't agree with you.

The reason for monster rounds against dangerous game is to reach the CNS through dense muscle and bone. A .243 probably won't stop a charging lion, because it won't penetrate well enough. It will absolutely bounce right off the head of a Cape Buffalo.

Hence, you want solid bullets, HEAVY bullets, going as fast as you can push them. But of all these variables, a couple hundred fps here or there are the least important, no matter what this does to the energy numbers. That's why they're somewhat illusory.

 

[saturno_v]

Armedbear

Nobody said that an old 45-70 won't go through a buffalo...it was not the topic of the discussion I think....but the energy numbers are that.....I'm not debating buffalo penetrating abilities of the original 45-70 trapdoor...that is beside the point.

The reason for monster rounds against dangerous game is to reach the CNS through dense muscle and bone.

That is exactly what I said if you read my post

A .243 probably won't stop a charging lion, because it won't penetrate well enough.

The right constructed bullet will penetrate enough...granted the wound channel will be smaller compared to a large diameter bullet

Hence, you want solid bullets, HEAVY bullets, going as fast as you can push them. But of all these variables, a couple hundred fps here or there are the least important, no matter what this does to the energy numbers.

Kinetic energy increase exponentially with speed.....any physic class will tell you that the braking power necessary to stop a car at 120 mph is MUCH MUCH HIGHER than double compared to the one needed to stop the same car going at 60 mph.

Kinetic Energy is not illusory

 

[Maverick223]

Maverick


The original 45-70 trapdoor load used 70 gr. (the name 45-70) of blackpowder behind a 405 gr. bullet for a muzzle velocity of 1350 fps, equivalent to 1638 ft/lb.

There was a reduced charge Army load too, using only 55 gr. of BP for a muzzle velocity of 1100 fps.

Buffalo hunters of the time were using heavier 500 gr. bullets in front of the same 70 gr. of BP.

The most common and safe load to be used in original Trapdoor rifle is the 405 gr. bullet at 1330 fps

The loads you mentioned can be safely used only in modern Trapdoor replicas.

So now you want to compare 136 yr old BP loads to modern smokeless loads. As I said before the load that I stated is a Trapdoor rated load per the 49th edition of Lymans...call it what you want, but it is roughly equivalent to the 500S&W. OTOH my own (modern) load is a 405gr HP out of a 28" long tube at well over 2000fps...match that with the 500S&W.

 

[saturno_v]

You said:

What? How is 500S&W better for dangerous game? The 500S&W can only be loaded (according to my handbook) to about the same energy as a anemic .45-70Govt. (trapdoor load)

You drew the comparison...not me....

The trapdoor loads you mentioned are everything but anemic...

I would not say that the 500 S&W will exceed any 45-70 loadings..obviously that is not the case (especially the 45-70 modern rifle loads which are very remarkable)...but I would not have said that the 500 can be loaded only to an "anemic" 45-70 trapdoor load level.....3000 ft/lb is anything but anemic for an trapdoor.

An anemic trapdoor load to me means 1300-1500 fps.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

Hmmmmm.............the .45-70 is easier on the shoulder? Might that not be an indication that the .500 would be nastier to the target than the .45-70? All else being about equal (bullet weight, rifle weight, etc), if the .500 is more punishing, it should be so at both ends........

 

[BMF500]

What? How is 500S&W better for dangerous game? The 500S&W can only be loaded (according to my handbook) to about the same energy as a anemic .45-70Govt.


My Barnes manual says different.

 

[Leaky Waders]

I like this discussion.

It would kind of neat to carry a rifle that is capable of stopping an elephant (should one get loose down our cul de sac ).

Is the action of marlins 45/70 lever gun up to the task with reloads?

In other words, with reloads in an 1895 (I think that is the action) and accounting for the rainbowing...does the 45/70 offer the flexibility to plink cowboy type loads, shoot moderate deer loads, or be loaded to published guidelines for african dangerous game loads?

 

[saturno_v]

Is the action of marlins 45/70 lever gun up to the task with reloads?

No is not for the "nuclear loads" which are intended for modern non lever action rifles only (for example modern single shot).

Unfortunately when it comes to the 45-70, as far as I understand it, there is a lot of confusion for the "layman"....it's like 4 different cartridges with the same name and identical case dimension.


1) You have loads that can be used in old orignal trapdoor rifles which should not exceed 1300-1350 fps (with a 405 gr. bullet) to replicate the performance of the original BP loads.

2) Then you have modern Trapdoor replicas where you can adventure into 1600-1800 fps..these loads are good for an old Marlin leveraction also

3) Then you have modern leveraction loads where you can reach about 2000 fps and heavier bullets

4) Nuclear loads intended only for modern break action rifles......velocities in excess of 2100 fps and bullet weight in excess of 500 gr.


On top of that you have handloaders that push the limits even more (for break action rifles only)

So when people talk about the 45-70 you need to figure out "which" 45-70 they are talking about...ME ranges from ~1600 to 4000!!!!

 

[Maverick223]

No is not for the "nuclear loads" which are intended for modern break action rifles only.

Break actions are relatively weak, the good actions are falling block (Winchester/Browning 1885 and Ruger No. 1/3) as well as properly converted Siamese Mausers. The Marlin 1895 is also a strong design, but not quite as strong as the aforementioned actions.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

When comparing straight on ballistics from reloading books, etc, don't forget to calculate for the longer barrel of the .500 rifle you are looking at. Most all load data is for an 8 3/8" barreled revolver, or maybe 10" test barrel, not a 16-22" rifle barrel.......

 

[saturno_v]

Yes the modern falling block (for exampel Ruger)

I would not exactly call the break action rifles "weak".....they can be chambered for monsters such as the Nitro Express family which would put even the strongest 45-70 to shame...

 

[BMF500]

When comparing straight on ballistics from reloading books, etc, don't forget to calculate for the longer barrel of the .500 rifle you are looking at. Most all load data is for an 8 3/8" barreled revolver, or maybe 10" test barrel, not a 16-22" rifle barrel.......

Excellent point. Anyone have a formula for this?

 

[MistWolf]

The 45-70 was designed to kill horses at 500 yards and break cavalry charges. Being blackpowder, it used the same velocities and bullet weights as other similar calibers. The 45-70 has proved itself against the deadliest foe of all: Man.

This grand old cartridge has also proven itself in recent times in Africa. I have one article stashed away in storage about a Marlin 1895 in 45-70 being used with great success against African Buffalo. I believe the bullets used were Sledgehammers. He author wrote about killing the first buffalo and the bullet sailed through it's broadside completely, to kill a second buffalo standing behind it which our bwana and his PH didn't see. Not only did the bullet kill the second buff dead, it sailed clean through it as well.

These bullets are long, hard and have a very large meplat.

As a kid, I distinctly remember reading about the 458 Winchester Magnum used on the Dark Continent. The author seemed to have an axe to grind and wrote about all the reasons why the 458 WinMag was wrong for dangerous game. What I remember most was chamber pressure. The 458 made the same ballistics as the British calibers, but with higher chamber pressures. In colder climes this wasn't a problem but in the tropics, heat could lead to pressure spikes and with the straight walls of the case, lead to cases sticking in the chambers.

I'll grant you that American powders of the 60's was a vast improvement over British cordite, but there was still a concern over chamber pressure and heat.

The 500 S&W generates what- 60,000 psi? That's a lot of pressure for a rifle caliber let alone a pistol. Performance is impressive to be sure and it's a technical marvel that S&W can harness that power in a revolver without excessive cutting of the top strap from the hot gasses.

For a Hnadi-Rifle, I'd go with a 45-70. I'd keep the velocities down and let the bullets do the killing.

You may still feel that the 45-70 is lacking for African game. You may be right. Just don't tell Paco Kelly's Safari pals that. They might take exception

 

[saturno_v]

The 45-70 was designed to kill horses at 500 yards and break cavalry charges. Being blackpowder, it used the same velocities and bullet weights as other similar calibers. The 45-70 has proved itself against the deadliest foe of all: Man.

This grand old cartridge has also proven itself in recent times in Africa. I have one article stashed away in storage about a Marlin 1895 in 45-70 being used with great success against African Buffalo. I belive the bullets used were Sledgehammers. He author wrote about killing the first buffalo and the bullet sailed through it's broadside completely, killing it and the buffalo standing behind it which our bwana and his PH didn't see. Not only did the bullet kill the second buff dead, it sailed clean through it as well.

These bullets are long, hard and have a very large meplat.

Impressive penetration but keep in mind they were using solids (Sledgehammer are solids)...any reasonable cartridge can do quite the numbers with a solid bullet.


I saw what a cheap Mosin Nagant FMJ bullet does to a solid oak Going through and through and never recovered the bullet....how 2 feet of solid oak pass through sounds like???

A diminuitive 160 gr, soft point bullet fired from a 6.5x55 (~2000 ft/lb at the muzzle) can go completely through a Moose....

As a kid, I distinctly remember reading about the 458 Winchester Magnum used on the Dark Continent. The author seemed to have an axe to grind and wrote about all the reasons why the 458 WinMag was wrong for dangerous game. What I remember most was chamber pressure. The 458 made the same ballistics as the British calibers, but with higher chamber pressures. In colder climes this wasn't a problem but in the tropics, heat could lead to pressure spikes and with the straight walls of the case, lead to cases sticking in the chambers.

Still the 458 Win Mag is one of the most popular big 5 cartridge in Africa.

 

[Uncle Mike]

There is no magic that a .50cal can perform that a .458 can't.

You yell .458...people say huh...what?....

You yell fitty...and NOW you got their attention. Palms get sweaty, mouths get dry, babies cry....

lol hehehehe!