45-70 Loading issue! Help!

[Texasgrillchef]

Ok i have loaded quite a few 45-70, 300,350,400 grain hornady and speer hollow point copper jacketed. No issues whatsoever.

Now i am trying to load 300gr hard cast lead. They wont chamber, They jam about 3/4 the way in.

I am using marlin 1895sbl lever action.

I havr one of those lyman chamber gauge "tubes" the round fits just fine in there. COL is exactly what is required per loading manual. No longer then any of the 300, 350,400gr hp rounds. the diameter measured with calipers is not larger then any of the other bullits

but it wont chamber... all others will still chamber.

Thoughts?

 

[WrongHanded]

Pics of the cartridge might be helpful. I'm curious about the bullet profile.

 

[SlowFuse]

How heavy is your crimp?

Are you full length sizing? With brass fired out of your gun, New brass or something else?

 

[Riomouse911]

When you say “won’t chamber” you’re talking about feeding from the mag tube into the chamber using the lever and not having it enter the chamber...rather than the bolt won’t go all the way closed when the round is already in the chamber?

If it won’t cycle, the profile may cause it to get hung up. Post a pic as was stated and we may be able to see if that’s it.

If it will chamber but won’t let to bolt close, the crimp can bulge out a bit if it’s crimped too much. This will keep the slightly tapered .45/70 case from fully dropping into the chamber. I’ve had that happen with all sorts of roll-crimped rounds when searching for the proper combo of crimp and seating depth.


Let us know a bit more and these guys on THR will have your solution!

Stay safe.

 

[ms6852]

When was the last time you pulled it apart and cleaned the breech bolt and carrier. Could be it just needs a good cleaning if the dimensions of the of the rounds are as you stated.

 

[garandsrus]

Did you measure the cast bullet diameter? It should be .458 or .459. How about the outside case diameter vs a jacketed bullet at the case mouth?

Did you flare them case mouth before seating the cast bullet? You will need to remove the bell with the seating die while putting a light crimp on the shell.

 

[Texasgrillchef]

How heavy is your crimp?

Are you full length sizing? With brass fired out of your gun, New brass or something else?

Light crimp,
new and reloaded many once twice three times
max brass from starline, remington, winchester. All brass was obtained new either as bare brass (starline) or from factory ammo i bought (remington winchester)

So all brass was fired out of my Marlin 1895sbl
Full length die. All brass anealed after 2nd firing. using the bench-source anealing machine

 

[Texasgrillchef]

Pics of the cartridge might be helpful. I'm curious about the bullet profile.

I will post a pic as soon as i figure out how?

 

[Texasgrillchef]

When you say “won’t chamber” you’re talking about feeding from the mag tube into the chamber using the lever and not having it enter the chamber...rather than the bolt won’t go all the way closed when the round is already in the chamber?

If it won’t cycle, the profile may cause it to get hung up. Post a pic as was stated and we may be able to see if that’s it.

If it will chamber but won’t let to bolt close, the crimp can bulge out a bit if it’s crimped too much. This will keep the slightly tapered .45/70 case from fully dropping into the chamber. I’ve had that happen with all sorts of roll-crimped rounds when searching for the proper combo of crimp and seating depth.


Let us know a bit more and these guys on THR will have your solution!

Stay safe.

It does not matter if i load a single load, or from the tube magazine. The lever and bolt will not fully close. If i do it hard then it jams in the chamber. lightly closing i can pull the jam out with my fingers.

The round will only slide into the chamber about 3/4 of the way.

 

[Texasgrillchef]

When was the last time you pulled it apart and cleaned the breech bolt and carrier. Could be it just needs a good cleaning if the dimensions of the of the rounds are as you stated.

I clean after every hunting trip, or trip to the firing range.

 

[Texasgrillchef]

Did you measure the cast bullet diameter? It should be .458 or .459. How about the outside case diameter vs a jacketed bullet at the case mouth?

Did you flare them case mouth before seating the cast bullet? You will need to remove the bell with the seating die while putting a light crimp on the shell.

The new bullets all are measuring from
.4575 to .4585. I have a batch of 500, i randomly sampled 100 from the box.

Mouth was slighltly flared with a powder through expander. just enough to allow bullit to seat. Thenit goes to the seating crimp die.

 

[Texasgrillchef]

Image

• Texasgrillchef
• Aug 17, 2020

45-70 300 grain hard cast.
both starline brass
seating depth different but does not make a...

 

[Texasgrillchef]

169F87C1-F452-4B42-A4FE-53E749873BFF

• Texasgrillchef
• Aug 17, 2020

732C9652-8E4E-423B-AA32-38AB48292CE7

• Texasgrillchef
• Aug 17, 2020

FBCB963B-C92C-455D-BA9A-CC5FA59A4163

• Texasgrillchef
• Aug 17, 2020

28CC2C48-A28A-4CC8-80B6-26EBE40458BA

• Texasgrillchef
• Aug 17, 2020

 

[ms6852]

It could be a possibility that the bullets measuring .4585 are a little over sized for your chamber. Don't take offense as we are brainstorming here trying to figure what is going on. Have you check to see if the bullets are seating straight and not at an angle? The bullet on the right that is longer seems to have more of a bulge, or could just be lighting from the picture.

 

[Texasgrillchef]

It could be a possibility that the bullets measuring .4585 are a little over sized for your chamber. Don't take offense as we are brainstorming here trying to figure what is going on. Have you check to see if the bullets are seating straight and not at an angle? The bullet on the right that is longer seems to have more of a bulge, or could just be lighting from the picture.

no worries not taking offense to anything at all. I appreciate brainstorming! make me think fo anything i might not allready have thought of.

I measured some of the ones i had no issues with, the 300, 350, and 400 grain hp from hornady and speer. and most of those are
.4585 as well. Good thought though!

Probably the lighting as its nickel plated. I did just go back and measure. Exactly the same

 

[edwardware]

I havr one of those lyman chamber gauge "tubes" the round fits just fine in there.

You are demonstrating, as have many before you, the need to decide which chamber you're loading for; the rifle or the chamber checker. Pick one, get rid of the other; I'd pick the rifle.

Obviously something is too large or long, and it's caused by the heavier bullet.

Looking at your picture I observe the ogive of the heavier bullet is well forward of the ogive of the lighter bullet. My first guess is the heavier bullet is contacting the leade before the bolt's closed; seating deeper will fix this. It's easy to experiment with, so try this first. Yes, shortening COAL will require that you work up from a starting load.

The other possibility is that the bullet diameter is either larger, or that by seating deeper you're expanding the brass midway down the case. Check this second.

 

[Col. Harrumph]

The flare may also leave a slight bulge after crimping, but I would expect this to be independent of which bullet you're seating. Still, you might consider investing in a Lyman 'M' die

 

[WrongHanded]

Thanks for the pic.
Are you seating to the top crimp groove?

Or are those cartridges loaded to length?

@edwardware pretty much covered it. You may have an acceptable OAL, but the ogive is shorter. Basically, the bullet becomes full diameter in a shorter distance when measured from the meplat, and is jamming in the end of the chamber.

If you seat to the first crimp groove and it's still happening, you either need to modify the bullet, or get something different (in design, or in diameter).

 

[ms6852]

WrongHanded is on to something here. Since you are using a hard cast bullet the bullet itself is shorter that a 300 grain copper jacketed bullet. Reminds me of my brothers .357 rifle where the manufacturer stated that he could shoot 38 special as long as the "38's were loaded to ..357 length." I would fiddle around seating the hard cast a little longer. Start at max C.O.L and see if it chambers, if not, just seat a little at at time and repeat process until you get it to chamber. When ever it chambers that is your C.O.L for that hard cast bullet on your rifle.

 

[Blue68f100]

May want to take a marker and paint the bullet and brass. Then try to chamber it and see if you can tell where it's contacting at. If it's on the bullet you need to shorten the OAL till it chambers + a little wiggle room, 0.020".

 

[SlowFuse]

If these are 300 grains they seem to be seated out pretty long from the pic. It also looks like the crimp isn't in a groove. I could be wrong there. It's early, havent had coffee yet and pic is a bit fuzzy on my phone.

I think this is an easy fix, seat the round deeper. The larger dimensions of the lead is likely hitting rifling before your jacketed bullets did, if you are loading to similar length.

And opposite of what I thought in my first post, you may benefit from a bit more crimp. Usually people put too much and bulge the case but yours look very light in the pic. Get your length set by the groove in the bullet, not overall length and add maybe an eighth to a quarter turn on the crimp die.

For example the round on the left if you seat and crimp it to the next groove up im betting it would work. I would go to the top groove if it were me after having issues mentioned. As already said, you'll probably need to work up your load unless you are in the light side of trapdoor loads.

 

[Obturation]

I agree, make a dummy round and seat deeper until it chambers. Or for an experiment, twist the nose of the dummy in some sandpaper to make it a tad smaller, that will answer if it's diameter or length. If it were me, I'd seat deeper and it should be fine .

 

[Charlie98]

Looking at your picture I observe the ogive of the heavier bullet is well forward of the ogive of the lighter bullet. My first guess is the heavier bullet is contacting the leade before the bolt's closed; seating deeper will fix this.

That's my guess as well... with experience seating bullets long for both my 1895 and 1885. Either take the bolt out, or just leave the bolt back and manually try to insert a cartridge in the chamber with your fingers. If the cartridge stops short of fully seating... very likely that sharp edge is hitting the rifling before the cartridge is fully chambered.

 

[jmorris]

What is your bullet diameter where the red and green arrows?



Your casegauge/chamber checker doesn’t have any rifling for the bullet to jam into.

If you get something like the Remington 405’s they are a different diameter where they sit in the case vs extend into the barrel past the chamber.

 

[murf]

heh, heh ... a plunk test for the 45-70!

murf