.45 ACP Problems (neck tension)
- Thread starter H1500308
- Start date
- Status
The Bushmaster
Member
Lee .45 ACP dies are designed for .45 ACP and have a taper crimp...I know. I called Lee a year ago and asked...Besides all you have to do is just remove the bell and no more...
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
Walkalong said:
You need to narrow down why you have so little neck tension, be it an over-size die, under-size bullets, or thin brass.
Whatever it is, Crimp is not the Problem, or the Cure.
rcmodel
+1
You need to narrow down why you have so little neck tension, be it an over-size die, under-size bullets, or thin brass.
Whatever it is, Crimp is not the Problem, or the Cure.
rcmodel
SSN Vet
Member
according to Lee's website...
Does this make any sense???
and this ...
Does this make any sense???
and this ...
Ridgerunner665
Member
I agree 100% (but I wasn't going to say it until I read your post)...I get match accuracy using RCBS equipment.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
Excessive taper crimp trying to hold a bullet is just not going to work anyway.
Lead cores & copper jackets are much more mailable then brass cases.
So, when you squeeze down the case, it also squeezes down the bullet.
Then, when the round comes out of the crimping die, the case springs back more then the bullet jacket & lead core.
The result is usually a looser bullet then if only a minimum taper crimp was used in the first place.
BTW: The same applies to the Lee FCD "post-sizing" male bovin bed linen. (Bull Sheet)
Squeezing a loaded round is only going to make the bullet under-size, and / or loose in the case.
rcmodel
Lead cores & copper jackets are much more mailable then brass cases.
So, when you squeeze down the case, it also squeezes down the bullet.
Then, when the round comes out of the crimping die, the case springs back more then the bullet jacket & lead core.
The result is usually a looser bullet then if only a minimum taper crimp was used in the first place.
BTW: The same applies to the Lee FCD "post-sizing" male bovin bed linen. (Bull Sheet)
Squeezing a loaded round is only going to make the bullet under-size, and / or loose in the case.
rcmodel
Have you actually measured the diameter of the expander plug? No amount of sizing will work if the expander is too large and therefore too close to bullet diameter to allow adequate neck tension. Unless the sizing die is so oversize that the expander isn't even working the brass (not likely) the sizing die itself shouldn't be the problem unless you have some very thin brass.
I got home today and tried the following:
I tried 3 types of brass and I was able to seat the bullet to depth and beyond using hand pressure only-moderate, not excessive force was required. I have NOT run this brass through the powder-through-expander die, just through the sizing die.
Some of the winchester brass had the crimping ring on the brass which stopped the bullet from being seated any deeper but the non-ringed brass lets the bullet go all the way to the bottom.
Do I need the U-die or just call Lee and see if I have a defective sizing die??
Bullets measure .451 at the base. Winchester 230g FMJ RN.
I tried 3 types of brass and I was able to seat the bullet to depth and beyond using hand pressure only-moderate, not excessive force was required. I have NOT run this brass through the powder-through-expander die, just through the sizing die.
Some of the winchester brass had the crimping ring on the brass which stopped the bullet from being seated any deeper but the non-ringed brass lets the bullet go all the way to the bottom.
Do I need the U-die or just call Lee and see if I have a defective sizing die??
Bullets measure .451 at the base. Winchester 230g FMJ RN.
feets
Try seating a bullet without using the expander at all. It may not work with lead unless it is a bevel base, but if it does it will tell you if it is a sizing problem or an expanding problem.
The Lee FCD will not cure your problem. Fixing the neck tension will.
An excessive roll crimp can actually ruin neck tension sometimes. Find the problem and fix it. Forget the Lee FCD. It can have its uses, but fixing bad neck tension isn't it. I won't use them. Tried em, scrapped em.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
H1500308
Sounds like a bad die. The 45 Winchester brass is generally pretty thick. If .451 jacketed bullets are not tight in that brass after sizing and seating WITHOUT using the expander, the sizer is almost surely to big. Call Lee.
Expander too big, brass to thin, sizer die too big, or perhaps even undersized bullets.
Try seating a bullet without using the expander at all. It may not work with lead unless it is a bevel base, but if it does it will tell you if it is a sizing problem or an expanding problem.
The Lee FCD will not cure your problem. Fixing the neck tension will.
An excessive roll crimp can actually ruin neck tension sometimes. Find the problem and fix it. Forget the Lee FCD. It can have its uses, but fixing bad neck tension isn't it. I won't use them. Tried em, scrapped em.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
H1500308
Sounds like a bad die. The 45 Winchester brass is generally pretty thick. If .451 jacketed bullets are not tight in that brass after sizing and seating WITHOUT using the expander, the sizer is almost surely to big. Call Lee.
Sorry to hijack...
I set the expander out far enough that the bullets wouldn't drop in. On this last batch, I was either shaving the jacket off the bullet, crushing the case with the bullet, or had bullets that would spin in the cases when crimped.
These were two different .451" 185 JHPs, neither of which had cannelures.
I didn't have the problem when loading the .452" 300 XTPs but they have two different cannelures.
I set the expander out far enough that the bullets wouldn't drop in. On this last batch, I was either shaving the jacket off the bullet, crushing the case with the bullet, or had bullets that would spin in the cases when crimped.
These were two different .451" 185 JHPs, neither of which had cannelures.
I didn't have the problem when loading the .452" 300 XTPs but they have two different cannelures.
Do the bullets spin when seaed but not crimped? The neck tension alone should be tight enough to keep them from being turned by hand. Over crimping will loosen the cases grip on the bullet as someone else posted. If you can`t move a seated bulllet but can after crimping your crimp is too much.
The 300 gr bullet seats deeper in the case then the lighter ones. The case walls taper as you go down the case to the base. The thicker walls will "grab" tighter on the longer bullet then they will on a shorter one.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
No cannelure + .451" = You are loading .45 ACP auto-pistol bullets in the .45 Colt case.
.45 LC revolver jacketed bullets are .452", and they all have a crimping cannelure.
Also, if you have very old .45 LC dies, they used to be set up for .454" bullets, which were more common then.
New .45 LC dies today are adjusted to size & expand for .452" bullets, not .451" auto-pistol bullets.
If you insist on loading .45 ACP bullets in .45 LC you need to turn down the expander a couple thousands to get the correct neck tension. But even that may not work if you have older dies that size cases for .454" bullet diameter.
No amount of roll crimp will make an under-size bullet tighter in the loose case neck.
rcmodel
The dies are only a couple years old.
The bullets can be pushed into the cases and/or spun with the fingers before and after crimping.
I knew the light bullets were a thousandth undersize but was hoping I could make 'em work for some lightweight plinkers.
The bullets can be pushed into the cases and/or spun with the fingers before and after crimping.
I knew the light bullets were a thousandth undersize but was hoping I could make 'em work for some lightweight plinkers.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
You should try seating some without using the expander plug.
That will tell you if your sizing die is pulling the case down far enough to get any neck tension.
If that works, turn a couple thousandths off of the expander rod.
It just isn't going to work right without proper neck tension to start with.
rcmodel
That will tell you if your sizing die is pulling the case down far enough to get any neck tension.
If that works, turn a couple thousandths off of the expander rod.
It just isn't going to work right without proper neck tension to start with.
rcmodel
SSN Vet
Member
now that's funny...
yes, Richard Lee can be a wee bit over the top with his marketing hype.
If you read Modern Reloading, just make sure you have a set of Pom-Poms handy, just in case you feel the need to join the cheerleading.
That said, I'm very happy with ALL of my Lee equipment and if it wasn't for Lee making the hobby affordable, I most likely would never have taken the plunge.
Griz44
Member
Mount Soapbox, install flame shield.
Wow, such a batch of brand snobs. My next door neighbor looks down on the rest of us because he drives a Lexus, and I drive a 20 year old GMC. I laugh at him because he pays 1200 for a tune up and I can buy a new engine for that - installed! We both get to work on time, reliably and in comfort. I spend 6,000.00 a year less on transportation. My choice. I reload to save money and enjoy myself. If not for practical and affordable Lee equipment, I would be shooting once a month instead of once a week. Some of you must reload for the social status that having a blue or green thingy on the bench must surely bring you. I am happy for you that you have what you want out of life. Us thrifty folks still get the job done, and have a great time doing it. We don't point fingers and make fun because we think you waste money. Hey - live and let live folks. I have a set of RCBS dies and a single stage RCBS press I picked up used. I like it, but no more or less than my Lee Challenger. I also have a set of Lee dies for the 45 acp, and I prefer the Lee, but both sets do a good job. I size and decap separate after 1st polish, then use separate stations for a gentle mouth flare (helps round egged cases as well), powder through die with case expander, and taper crimp final. I load what I can find cheap at the gun shows, Laser-Cast lead at .452, plated- (Berry and Rainier) at .451 and FMJ at .451 - (Winchester). I also cast TL-45-230-RN with a Lee mold at .452. I make minor adjustments at the flare, expander and seating stations for the different bullets and have nice tight bullets with no shaving. I use a lot of assorted pick up range brass, (again to save money) and some of it does have very thin walls that require some additional adjusting. Accuracy is excellent. It all works for me and the 300-400 rounds a week I shoot are easy and fun to crank out with a LEE Loadmaster that I picked up new for 215.00 including case feeder, catcher, powder dispenser, etc.. and and a full set of dies. The RCBS or Dillon progressives that do the same thing are really nice but were pushing the 600.00+ mark to get all the same equipment. I am approaching 10,000 rounds now, and have no complaints. The 400.00 difference buys a lot of powder, primers and a few bullets. Key note here, even a grand worth of the finest machines in the world will produce crappy ammunition if not used properly. The cheapest setup can and will produce very high quality ammunition in the right hands. A 19.95 Lee tube loader held the worlds 1,000 yard accuracy title for many years. Point, be gentle with the new loaders, they have to learn like we all did, by doing and listening and enjoying the process.
Dismount Soapbox.
Happy Shooting Everyone!
Wow, such a batch of brand snobs. My next door neighbor looks down on the rest of us because he drives a Lexus, and I drive a 20 year old GMC. I laugh at him because he pays 1200 for a tune up and I can buy a new engine for that - installed! We both get to work on time, reliably and in comfort. I spend 6,000.00 a year less on transportation. My choice. I reload to save money and enjoy myself. If not for practical and affordable Lee equipment, I would be shooting once a month instead of once a week. Some of you must reload for the social status that having a blue or green thingy on the bench must surely bring you. I am happy for you that you have what you want out of life. Us thrifty folks still get the job done, and have a great time doing it. We don't point fingers and make fun because we think you waste money. Hey - live and let live folks. I have a set of RCBS dies and a single stage RCBS press I picked up used. I like it, but no more or less than my Lee Challenger. I also have a set of Lee dies for the 45 acp, and I prefer the Lee, but both sets do a good job. I size and decap separate after 1st polish, then use separate stations for a gentle mouth flare (helps round egged cases as well), powder through die with case expander, and taper crimp final. I load what I can find cheap at the gun shows, Laser-Cast lead at .452, plated- (Berry and Rainier) at .451 and FMJ at .451 - (Winchester). I also cast TL-45-230-RN with a Lee mold at .452. I make minor adjustments at the flare, expander and seating stations for the different bullets and have nice tight bullets with no shaving. I use a lot of assorted pick up range brass, (again to save money) and some of it does have very thin walls that require some additional adjusting. Accuracy is excellent. It all works for me and the 300-400 rounds a week I shoot are easy and fun to crank out with a LEE Loadmaster that I picked up new for 215.00 including case feeder, catcher, powder dispenser, etc.. and and a full set of dies. The RCBS or Dillon progressives that do the same thing are really nice but were pushing the 600.00+ mark to get all the same equipment. I am approaching 10,000 rounds now, and have no complaints. The 400.00 difference buys a lot of powder, primers and a few bullets. Key note here, even a grand worth of the finest machines in the world will produce crappy ammunition if not used properly. The cheapest setup can and will produce very high quality ammunition in the right hands. A 19.95 Lee tube loader held the worlds 1,000 yard accuracy title for many years. Point, be gentle with the new loaders, they have to learn like we all did, by doing and listening and enjoying the process.
Dismount Soapbox.
Happy Shooting Everyone!
TurboFC3S
Member
Exact same problem here, but only with RP brass.
I'm using a new set of Hornady New Dimension dies, and a Lee FCD. To get the RP brass to hold a bullet firm I had to give it more crimp on the Lee FCD than I like ... I'll probably end up throwing the RP brass out.
I'm using a new set of Hornady New Dimension dies, and a Lee FCD. To get the RP brass to hold a bullet firm I had to give it more crimp on the Lee FCD than I like ... I'll probably end up throwing the RP brass out.
Wildfire
Member
Wow!
Hey there:
I left this one alone , cause RC and walkalong got it done. I didn't see any newbe bashing at all.
I thought he got the best advice possible.
No matter who's dies he uses the problem remains the same. The fix also remains the same.
Hey there:
I left this one alone , cause RC and walkalong got it done. I didn't see any newbe bashing at all.
I thought he got the best advice possible.
No matter who's dies he uses the problem remains the same. The fix also remains the same.
The Bushmaster
Member
Griz44...If it will make you feel better...My reloading equipment consists of Lee Presses (three hole Turret and a single stage). Lee dies and RCBS ancilary equipment and most of it is 20 years old. There now...Ya feelin' better?
- Status
