.45 ACP versus .223; 10 feet away

[mavracer]

Heads never hold still, even when the body is.
Way too easy to miss a bobbing weaving head.
And a head shot miss is a clean miss.

Are you kidding me at 10 feet the guys holding a shotgun or machine gun.
First off even if you could cause complete cardiac arrest he's still gonna have 15 seconds to shoot to slide lock, and second if you aren't confident that you can make a head shot at 10 feet you should post less and practice more.

 

[rcmodel]

No, I'm not kidding you.

Planning & training for head shots in a gun fight is a recipe for a miss in the heat of a home invasion.

You fight the way you train.
And every major firearms school and police organization in the country teaches & trains COM, not head shots in a gunfight.

There is a very good reason for that.

The exception would be police snipers who have the luxury of distance, stealth, a scope, and surprise to poke holes in heads.

rc

 

[DefiantDad]

The point about the carbine having a longer stock is interesting. While it is longer for the bad guy to grab on to (versus a handgun), the fact that you actually have a longer LEVER to twist the entire firearm (especially with the stock clamped under your arm) so that the muzzle is pointed at the bad guy while you squeeze the trigger, is actually a very good point.

Anyway, we are not at that stage where you are now in melee with the bad guy.

Let's zoom in on the recent discussion. Let's say that now you are shooting Center of Mass, and connect with the first shot. Is the bad guy sufficiently dazed for another couple of seconds, that you can now go for the head shot? (Given the caliber choice).

By the way, we have not brought up the bullet yet. We would be looking to use Hollowpoint on the .223 right? As probably with the .45 as well. But would HP on the .223 penetrate armor or just fragment on impact?

 

[rcmodel]

Any decent 55- 60 grain SP, HP, or ballistic-Tip .223 bullet will burn through about 1/2" of cold rolled steel.

A typical bullet-proof vest will have little impact on it getting inside the BG and turning his innerds to red slime.

Click on the load, then click on "view" to the right of the cartridge data to see ballistic gel results.

http://www.hornadyle.com/products/more_detail8832.html?id=130&sID=86&pID=1

http://www.hornadyle.com/products/detaile159.html?id=130&sID=73

rc

 

[mavracer]

And every major firearms school and police organization in the country teaches & trains COM, not head shots in a gunfight.

BS there aren't any worthwhile close quarters courses that don't teach failure to stop drills.

 

[rondog]

I'd prefer my AR-15 carbine, but my .45 1911 fits in the headboard cubby of my bed. My wife ain't going for no long guns of any kind leaning against the wall in our bedroom. I'd vote for the .223, you can tear off several shots very quickly and the damage is devastating.

But, FWIW, I keep an M1 Carbine under the bed loaded with Remington soft points (the wife doesn't know about it). IMO it's much lighter and handier for a CQB weapon than my AR, and proven very deadly in many wars. Has double the capacity of my 1911, plus 2 more 15 rd. mags on the stock in a pouch. And it's equipped with a red dot sight.

So, argue over .45 vs. .223 all you want, I personally will grab this one. JMHO.

 

[DefiantDad]

Yes I had been reading from various places about soft point being actually preferable to JHP in some cases.

 

[amprecon]

Considering where you are and unless you are expecting trouble, most people would probably have a handgun with them more often than a rifle or carbine.
It is one thing to expect a confrontation and another to be surprised, expecting one at close range I'd want a pistol or even a shotgun.
Not expecting a confrontation I believe the pistol could be more quickly employed.

 

[JohnBiltz]

I don't believe I have ever heard of a SWAT team doing an entry and dropping their carbines and drawing their .45 sidearms. There are good reasons for this.

 

[Loosedhorse]

Well, if we're ordering off the menu

So, argue over .45 vs. .223 all you want, I personally will grab this one.

For one shot at 10 ft, I'll take one of these:

 

[Captain Brown Beard]

Im kind of surprised there's a debate on this. .45 ACP vs .223 at 10 feet? Rifles trump handguns, always have.

And please don't respond with lol .22 rifle vs .500 SW.

I don't believe I have ever heard of a SWAT team doing an entry and dropping their carbines and drawing their .45 sidearms. There are good reasons for this.

There you have it folks. A pistol is a sidearm. It is called a sidearm for a reason.

 

[DefiantDad]

Yup, it didn't seem so clear cut to me so that's why I asked. Anyway the 223 choice so far seems to be very logical based on the input. The ballistic gel results are also very clear!

 

[harrygunner]

Generally, the greater the momentum, the greater the damage done along the bullet's velocity vector. The greater the energy, the greater the damage done orthogonal to the bullet's velocity vector.

In other words, high energy projectiles damage more tissue away from the primary bullet trajectory.

Handgun energies are low, so handgun energy effects are easy to ignore. In this case, the .45 ACP will have a bit more momentum, but the .223 will have nearly three times the energy. That's why I'd use a rifle.

----

An aside: I've noticed on Internet gun sites, people often focus on either momentum or energy, but rarely both.

As the bullet interacts with tissue, both the tissue and bullet velocities change. That's like two unknowns in an algebra problem. You need two equations to solve for two unknowns. In this case, the two equations are energy and momentum conservation.

So, nature can't "do the math" by looking at just momentum or just energy.

 

[Stevie-Ray]

At 10 feet, if I get the first shot, I want my EDC which just happens to be a .45 ACP. I will almost guarantee that hit and therefore will probably have more than one shot. Even though I do have a 5.56 carbine and pistol.

 

[Texan Scott]

Not sure how much it would matter....
but since i could be shooting pistol or long gun with my choice of rounds in either caliber, i'll say .223. I won't limit myself to one shot, because i will probably empty the magazine as fast as adreneline and my finger will allow, be it 8 rounds or 20... not waiting to see if anything hits/ works. 20 rounds of .223 anywhere near center of mass will jelly his innards. he WILL be a snotrag on legs when i run out. he might shoot me; just because i shoot him doesn't mean he won't pull the trigger a couple times before he drops. but, that works both ways. we might BOTH end up dead, as can happen in twp-way gunfights. but again, i'm just selfish enough to let my family live to bury me, rather than living to bury one of them.

 

[Elm Creek Smith]

Ruger Mini-14 with Hornady 55 grain V-Max ammo.

ECS

 

[420Stainless]

Either. I'm more comfortable making any shot with a rifle, so I'd generally say the .223. However, a Thompson or Beretta Storm would be hard to beat by any other rifle in an indoor situation.

 

[TimboKhan]

[QUOTEBS there aren't any worthwhile close quarters courses that don't teach failure to stop drills. ][/QUOTE]

There aren't any credible close quarters courses that teach you to specfically try and stop someone by shooting them in the head, either. Name me one credible CQB trainer or class that teaches that you should choose the hardest target to hit in a high stress situation as your first option.

 

[kcshooter]

No brainer for me, .45 ACP. I won't loose as much hearing,

This.

Heads never hold still, even when the body is.
Way too easy to miss a bobbing weaving head.
And a head shot miss is a clean miss.

And this.

.45acp.
I prefer a handgun, and at 10ft, strongly prefer a handgun.
It's a one handed weapon, and at this distance, holes are holes, and I have a free hand should I need it, whether that is used to control the attacker or to control his weapon if he has one.
At 10 feet, chances are, I'll need it, unless he decides to die a Hollywood death (drops dead instantly upon bullet impact).
I'm far less likely to lose retention with a pistol than a long gun.

 

[DefiantDad]

I do remember that in the London (?) event (I forget which exact one) a few years back, the police/security apparatus were shooting at the (later said to be innocent) guy in the subway (?), and they aimed for his head, and gave testimony later that they were trained to hit the base of the brain to deactivate the target so that he/she would be unable to press any bomb triggers. So it seems some teams are trained for that kind of head shot.

On the carbine (e.g., Beretta CX4 Storm), that levels the playing field comparing the pistol caliber to the .223, on a more equal footing with the shooting platform. Seems like .223 still trumps the pistol bullet coming out from the carbine?

 

[Cosmoline]

Honest it isn't even close. Out of a carbine in particular the .223 at that range will do far more damage than a mere .45 ACP. The bullet, moving over 3,000 fps, is likely to blow apart and take an impressive portion of the person with it. The ACP will bore a good hole and pack a punch, but it's not going to have the same explosive effect on tissue.

That's not to say the .45 ACP isn't a fine pistol round. But it's a PISTOL round. It's not an intermediate round. You're really comparing apples and oranges. The .45 has a huge advantage when it comes to carrying the pistol around or concealing it. But if you don't have to conceal it, you'll want something more potent if at all possible. The concerns about hearing loss if you're about to die seem a little off base, as well.

Look to the Miami Shootout for a good example of what happens when sidearm-armed officers go against a .223 carbine. The results were devastating and tragic.

Richard Manauzzi Injured (unspecified injuries).
Gordon McNeill Seriously injured by .223 gunshot wounds to the right hand and neck
Edmundo Mireles Seriously injured by a .223 gunshot wound to the left forearm.
Gilbert Orrantia Injured by shrapnel and debris produced by a .223 bullet near miss.
John Hanlon Seriously injured by .223 gunshot wounds to the right hand and groin.
Benjamin Grogan, 53 Killed by a .223 gunshot wound to the chest.
Gerald Dove, 30 Killed by two .223 gunshot wounds to the head.

That's all from one suspect's Mini-14. They kept hitting him and he kept shooting. You don't bring a handgun to a rifle fight.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm

holes are holes

No, they're not. Look at the gel testing. Look at the real world results. At that range in particular the 5.56/.223 hits like a freight train and will create enough temp cavity to do serious secondary damage to organs. The result is a mass of inoperable tissue, even if the subject lives long enough to get to a hospital. A .45 ACP, FMJ or HP, is a big slow slug that bores a nice hole. It is surely lethal, but not in the same category as a .223. And with the .223, even glancing wounds and wounds to arms and legs can be enough to knock a person out of action immediately. The super high velocity leads to bullets that can turn bones to shrapnel, so a hit to the hand doesn't bore a hole through it but turns it to hamburger.

In contrast, you can go on youtube and see many videos of unfortunate folks shooting themselves with sidearms and limping away, continuing to talk or curse. And that's CONTACT wounds. It takes little imagination to picture the results from a .223 in similar circumstances. Lordy.

 

[GLOOB]

First off even if you could cause complete cardiac arrest he's still gonna have 15 seconds to shoot to slide lock

A complete and sudden cardiac arrest would cause a loss of consciousness in a few seconds, tops. Add a large hole in the heart or major arteries and you get a near immediate blackout, like a pilot that pulled too many G's. You'd have to make a good hit, of course. This isn't psychological, either. Works same on a deer.

 

[kcshooter]

You misquoted me by excluding this part:

at this distance,

10ft. He's on top of you. Do you really want a rifle in your hands at this point? I don't.

You're missing what I mean by "holes are holes". I'm not saying a .223 isn't more damaging. It is, by far.

But neither one is likely to cause instant death.

So if there is to be a struggle in the conflict, which at the distance specified, there likely will be, at least I have a free hand with a handgun. That's the point I was going for.

The result is a mass of inoperable tissue, even if the subject lives long enough to get to a hospital

True, but he most likely will live long enough to fight back, even if only for a matter of second. If he's armed, that's long enough if I am unable to get control of the weapon in his hand, be it a knife or firearm. If I have a free hand, I'm more capable of controlling his attack.

with the .223, even glancing wounds and wounds to arms and legs can be enough to knock a person out of action immediately

Can be, yes. WILL be, well, maybe, maybe not. Find me a determined or altered state attacker, and the results can vary dramatically.







OK, this is for a different thread but I can't resist:

Look to the Miami Shootout

Yeah, but now they have .40's instead of 9's and .38's, so they're waaaay better off now, right?

 

[mavracer]

A complete and sudden cardiac arrest would cause a loss of consciousness in a few seconds, tops........Works same on a deer.

Yep, I've seen quite a few game animals shot, and while I probably should have said up to 15 seconds to eliminate any arguments, way to many of those animals have ran or walked more than enough even with a 30/06 class rifle shot to the heart for me to think COM in this scenario. 10 ft , element of suprise and he's holding a long arm this is not the time to try to make it a fair fight.

So if there is to be a struggle in the conflict, which at the distance specified, there likely will be, at least I have a free hand with a handgun. That's the point I was going for.

I'd suggest you take a close quarters carbine class, you are far overrating the effectiveness of having a free hand when compaired to what you can do with a 3ft long club.

 

[SEE IT LIKE A NATIVE]

I was always taught that you use your pistol to fight your way to a long gun and to transition to in the event of a malfunction ! Rifle rounds are much more lethal than handgun rounds ! I love my .45 but I cant carry a rifle all day every day in civilian life ! At home my always ready gun is my everyday carry glock30sf , but the 12 ga with 8 rounds of buckshot is close at hand ! Kevin