.45 ACP versus .223; 10 feet away

[psyopspec]

However, I don't want to be using my AR15 when trying to maneuver inside the home.

Why in the world would you want to maneuver here? You get early warning. You get the element of surprise. You get to be defending in CQB. You get the initiative. You get a far superior weapon if that's an advantage you choose. In FoF, that means you'd win 80+% of the time.

Why would you give up all that for a pea shooter to go maneuvering?

 

[mljdeckard]

Because you can't always sit and wait. If the bad guy is between you and the kids, you can't wait.

 

[psyopspec]

Deckard, per the OP:

Which one would you rely on for stopping an imminent threat coming around the corner / in your doorway

Why rush? Dude will be here in seconds. The moment you step in the hallway, you've given up all advantages and gone to an actual disadvantage if the adversary is armed with a long gun and you've got the pistol.

 

[wildehond]

.223 is devistating at that distance. Just make sure you know what it is like to fire a .223 in an confinded space. It might surprise you especially in a carbine version.

 

[Loosedhorse]

I don't want to be using my AR15 when trying to maneuver inside the home.

Why not?

When police clear buildings, don't they generally prefer to use carbines or shotguns rather that handguns? Except for the guy in front with the shield of course.

 

[Cosmoline]

The only circumstances I'm aware of where a handgun would be routinely used by cops or military to clear a space are tunnels in Vietnam or spider holes/caves in the current battlefields. There's ample room to maneuver a carbine in any normal house not occupied by NVA or hobbits.

 

[psyopspec]

Add ewoks and jawas just to round out the list, though a sandcrawler tends to be a sort of industrial camper van, and thus will have more wide open spaces.

 

[wow6599]

What about bears at 10 feet?

 

[Water-Man]

This thread is deteriorating.

 

[Auto426]

Why would you give up all that for a pea shooter to go maneuvering?

Because as the other poster said, sitting in one spot and waiting is not always an option. And I would hardly call a .45 ACP at point blank range a peashooter. A 230 HP isn't going to bounce off the intruder and a .223 isn't going to make him explode. They are both perfectly capable of stopping the threat, but one is much easier to work with inside of tight spaces.

Why not?

When police clear buildings, don't they generally prefer to use carbines or shotguns rather that handguns? Except for the guy in front with the shield of course.

In those pictures you posted, the officers are all using SBR's, which is something that I don't have. What I do have is an AR with a 16" barrel, and with the butt stock fully extended it's not something that's easy to move around with in my home. My handgun is easier to bring into action and it gives me a free hand if I need it.

 

[General Geoff]

No brainer for me, .45 ACP. I won't loose as much hearing, and at 10 feet away, either one center of mass will do the trick. You can always shoot them again if needed.

.45ACP out of a pistol is louder than .223 out of an 18" rifle barrel.


I can't believe this is even a debate. Rifle is far easier to aim, especially under stress and adrenaline dump. .223 rifle in this instance has three times the muzzle velocity and energy of a .45ACP pistol. Wound channels and tissue damage are in completely separate leagues. I'd choose the rifle in pretty much any home defense scenario, let alone this hypothetical scenario which precludes having to maneuver in spaces tight enough to constrain a carbine user.


Rifle, every time. If the .223 rifle is not available, then use a .45ACP carbine. Still better than a pistol.

 

[chieftain]

A fine and glaring example of Amateurs vs Professionals.

Simply amazing.

Fred

 

[DefiantDad]

By extrapolation, a .308 is far better than any handgun, or .223, if you are able to use it.

In fact it seems you would use a handgun only if it is IMPOSSIBLE to use a rifle, based on all the advantages of the rifle/carbine.

These are the take-away learnings I got from this discussion, based on all the various points and counterpoints.

Thanks again to all who contributed.

 

[General Geoff]

By extrapolation, a .308 is far better than any handgun, or .223, if you are able to use it.

..not necessarily. .308 does deliver about twice the muzzle energy of .223, but at the expense of a heavier and bulkier weapon that has much more pronounced recoil, and consequently slower followup shots. In the hypothetical scenario of the original post, where you only get ONE shot, I would agree that .308 invariably trumps .223. But in an actual scenario where followup shots are possible and maybe required, .223 could be considered the better choice.


I personally have a .308 autoloader for home defense, but I don't own a .223 carbine. If I did, I would seriously consider switching to that for primary HD duty.

 

[DefiantDad]

Interesting. Thanks.

 

[GLOOB]

I wonder if people forget that hydrostatic shock is real because it's so often debated in HANDGUNS. A 55gr fmj at 2800+fps does more tissue damage on average than any perfectly mushroomed 45ACP bullet.

 

[kcshooter]

A fine and glaring example of Amateurs vs Professionals.

Ha!
Now that was just funny!

 

[psyopspec]

Because as the other poster said, sitting in one spot and waiting is not always an option.

And as I said, the OP says that the aggressor is coming to us.

What I do have is an AR with a 16" barrel, and with the butt stock fully extended it's not something that's easy to move around with in my home.

If the butt stock can be extended, might I assume that it can be collapsed? If so, why not go that route? Finally, if it would make you a believer I'm happy to find (or just take) pics of what it looks like to move through an interior with a 16 inch barrel. Heck, my shotgun has an 18 inch barrel and a fixed stock and I've never had any problems doing dry runs on places I've lived with that. YMMV, and it appears that it does.

 

[Creature]

I have personally seen what a 223 FMJ can do at close range from a 14.5 barrel. It is just plain NASTY! Much more devastating than a 45ACP JHP from the same distance.

 

[TG13]

.45.. because it's what i have..

but for home protection, it's a 12 Gauge in whatever flavor you wish..

not .223, or .45, which are both lesser choices but better than nothing at all..

 

[Creature]

not .223, or .45, which are both lesser choices but better than nothing at all..

I can think of several reasons why a 223 from a carbine would be a better choice than a 12ga for HD...

If youre concerned about the neighbors, a shotgun loaded with 00buck can over penetrate drywall more than 223. Even 9mm will pentrate farther than 223 through drywall.

At average room distance, 12ga shot spread is can still cause misses. You will still need to aim as carefully with a shotgun as you will a rifle or pistol. You will also need to be very familiar with you stogun's pattern. My Mossberg 590 patterns at 3" at 5yds, and 7" at 10yds. I can easily miss my target with a poorly aimed shot from my Mossberg at 15 ft.

Unless youre using a semi-auto shotgun, a pistol and carbine will out perform a shotgun in regards to follow-up shot speed. Even with semi-auto shotgun loaded with 00buck, it is easy to send follow-up shots much faster with a 223 carbine or my 45acp handgun.

Under stress, I have short shucked a pump shotgun. Not a fun problem to clear when facing an adversary.

A shotgun will never offer the ammo capapcity or speed of reloading that an AR does...the only advantage a shotgun offers is the ability "top off" its mag.

As for sheer knockdown power of a shotgun, my 223 will likely penetrate any body armor a badguy might be wearing. Im not so sure about 00Buck pentrating a vest... And if he isnt wearing a vest, a 223 bullet from 10 yards is as DEVASTATINGLY messy as a load from my shotgun...

 

[Skribs]

Creature, the Saiga shotguns offer magazine-fed reloading. But unless you have lower capacity magazine (4 or 5 rounds) it is going to be huge.

 

[mnhntr]

12 ga pump with 18 inch barrel and pistol grip. Load would be buck shot. Racking the pump more a fear factor than anything. Buck shot little bigger pattern area that can hit said target than one .22 cal or .45 cal bullet.

THIS

 

[TarDevil]

I don't have an AR, but if I did it would go with me to a fight. If I get a bonus this year, I'll add a decent pump 12 ga for my go-to HD gun. If I get a GOOD bonus, it will be a Ruger Mini in 6.8.

But transition from rifle to handgun... at night? I don't wear much to bed, and sure ain't gonna take time to put on a belt and holster. It's gotta be one or another.

 

[PRM]

Since the OP stated "which", I am assuming you have the option of either for this discussion.

Personally, I would go to any hand gun, ONLY when I was out of .223 or my weapon malfunctioned. Choosing a hand gun first, over an M4 or similar carbine is pure fantasy.