.45 auto C217xxx serial number range?

[AlexanderA]

I have a .45 auto with a frame serial number of C217xxx (Colt commercial number series). This number is not supposed to exist, since Colt discontinued commercial production in 1942 with s/n C215018, and resumed in 1946 with s/n C220001.

I learned today, from an apparent expert at a gun show, that this is one of the ersatz receivers produced in Vietnam in the early 1960's. They picked a serial number range that would not conflict with the Colt numbers. Anybody else heard this?

I bought this gun, used, in 1968 at a gun shop in Texas, so I have no further provenance on it. (When I bought it, it had a Remington-Rand slide with Micro adjustable sights, and a mismatched National Match barrel.) The receiver seems generally well-made. The rails show evidence of welding and re-machining -- possibly an accurizing job -- and there is an internal crack in the magazine well at the top of the slot for the trigger (no sign of a crack on the outside of the gun).

Any opinions on this? Do I have anything worthwhile or is it junk?

 

[Jim K]

Can you provide good pictures of the frame markings, especially the serial number. The stop and start numbers for the Government Model are given by Clawson as 215083 and 220001, but 217xxx would still be in limbo. Clawson is generally reliable, but he can only repeat what the company told him and that could well be wrong or based on shipping data, not manufacturing data.

In any case, I had not heard the story of receivers produced in Vietnam, but my BS meter is going off the scale. The only pistol receivers produced in Vietnam that I know of were made by the VC and they were pretty crude (and the makers didn't worry about serial numbers because there weren't any).

Jim

 

[rcmodel]

+1

Counterfeit Vietnam Commercial Colt frames is One I Never heard of either.

And how would the Vietnamese know where to start and stop numbering anyway back in those days?
Or care anyway?
They were never in the business of making counterfeit Commercial Colts while fighting a war.

That sounds like a gun-show story / tall tale to me!

rc

 

[AlexanderA]

I don't know how to post pictures here, but I'll try to describe this as best I can.

I've gone over the entire frame with a magnifying glass, and the only marking on it is the serial number. It's in the same place, and is in the same size, as a Colt serial number would be. However, the lettering is straight up and down and not slanted like a Colt number. It's in a sans serif font that's obviously machine-stamped or engraved (perfectly straight alignment), but it's rather faint, possibly because the frame was subsequently bead-blasted and refinished (at the time the accurizing work was done on the rails?). There's no "Government Model" marking above the serial number, as on the Colts.

The gentleman I spoke to at the gun show seemed very knowledgeable about .45's. As soon as I mentioned the serial number, his immediate reaction was that this was one of the "notorious" C217xxx block of receivers that were "Vietnamese" copies. He claimed to have seen 4 or 5 of these in his 30-year collecting career. (IMO, it would be more likely that, if the story were true, they were made in the Philippines rather than Vietnam. I think they were making Colt copies in the Philippines as early as the 1960's.)

Remember, this was produced/imported prior to the GCA '68, so there were fewer regulations/restrictions on marking, etc.

All these years I thought I had a rare Colt, so this has been somewhat of a letdown. On the other hand, perhaps this is rare in another way, as an early clone copy?

This forum is a great source of knowledge and that's why I thought I would ask here for a second opinion.

 

[Ron James]

I have to admit that are still a lot of things I don't know nor have heard about, but still, if someone told me that counterfeit 1911's ( I'm not talking about Cong guns made in a village workshop ) were being made in Vietnam I would have to laugh, what would be the purpose behind such an endeavor.:banghead:

 

[AlexanderA]

Purpose? Well, a city as large as Saigon would have had machine shops capable of duplicating a Colt .45, and they could have sold them cheaply to GIs that were not issued such a weapon, and/or wanted to bring one back as a souvenir. These would not have been the crude jungle-made weapons, but, still, you'd have to question the quality of the steel used. (That could explain why there's a crack in the magazine well of my gun.) I'm not saying this is necessarily true, but at least it's a somewhat plausible explanation.

We know that similar guns were being produced in the Philippines at around the same time. I doubt that the Philippines were that much more advanced than Vietnam.

Surely there must be someone out there that has first-hand knowledge of the situation. Or at least, someone else, besides myself, that has such a pistol.

 

[Ron James]

The South Vietnamese were not interested in making counterfeit guns, there were too many real ones around. They were much more interested in dealing drugs, stolen American military goods and looted PX goods, besides the GI's wanted stub nose S&W's, 45's were a dime a dozen. No, believe me, they were not turning out counterfeit Colt 1911's. I'm afraid I would have to say that story was pure bull. I might be wrong and if any one can prove other wise I will eat crow. ADDED: They started using metal detectors on returning GI's and any thing shipped in Hold baggage would be pilfered in Japan and stole, even personal pictures. However it was possible to mail items by falsifying the customs declarations { if you wanted to chance it }. ADDED again, When Colt stopped making the commercial 1911 to work on military contracts, they did not throw away any commercial frames they had already finished, they could very well have had several hundred frames already number and ready for assembly, After the war they simply took the frames out of storage and resumed where they had left off. Most of the large makers of the time had frames made and put away for future assembly, I don't see why Colt would be any different.

 

[AlexanderA]

Believe me, I would love for my gun to have an actual Colt frame. However, the lack of any other typical Colt markings, and the big gap between the last known commercial pre-war Colts (C215xxx serial range) and this one, lead me to think otherwise. I too doubt the story of the Vietnamese origins of these guns. So what we have here remains a mystery. (We certainly know that it was made prior to 1968.)

 

[Jim K]

Any genuine Colt frame would have the other markings as well as the serial number and the number would be in the same style and font as those of the pre-war frames. One area you can check is to remove the slide and look at the top of the frame around the disconnector hole. If the frame is Colt, there should be Colt inspection marks (letters) in that area.

If you had not had it so long, I would say it is a Brazilian frame; many of those have turned up with the original (deliberately) lightly stamped numbers ground off and spurious numbers and markings put on. I have seen them used on a fake US&S and a fake Singer. Fortunately, both were so crude and obvious that no knowledgeable person would have been fooled.

Sorry, but what you say about the numbering style and font only serves to confirm my feeling that that frame never was anywhere near Hartford, CT.

Jim

 

[Gordon]

Maybe of Argentine origin, I need pictures tho.Also some Nazi frames were produced. Need pictures!

 

[bainter1212]

I also instantly thought it might be of Argentine origin. Weren't the Argentines using Colt machinery initially? Maybe this is one of those....somehow lacking the FMAP billboard on the slide.

 

[Jim K]

The Argentine-made guns never went that high in serial numbering and they did not use the "C" prefix. Colt sold commercial pistols to Argentina, with the "C" prefix, but the numbers were much lower.

Some guns sold to Argentina had no visible serial number on the frame, only on top of the slide; the frame serial number is under the mainspring housing.

Once again, lack of pictures makes the whole thing totally guess work and speculation, though I suspect even good pictures would not help much.

Jim

 

[Dr.Rob]

I would post this over on Colt Forum and see what replies you get.

 

[Jim K]

Since the OP apparently can't post pictures, I doubt another site would be of any more help.

Jim