45 Colt Loads and Position Sensitivity

Barmcd said:
I have three loads for my 45 Colt revolvers, 9.9 grs of Accurate No. 5, 7.4 gr. of Unique and 7.3 gr. of HP-38. If I point the muzzle up, and then bring it down to shoot, I get between 700-750 FPS out of the three loads. If I lower the muzzle of the gun, then raise it to shoot, the velocity is 100-200 FPS lower. I realize its caused by very little smokeless powder in a big case designed for black powder. Is there a way to fix this problem besides using Trail Boss which is impossible to find? Are there any other position insensitive powders?
Click to expand...

I shoot 6.0-7.0 gr. of Bullseye with 250-255 gr. cast bullets, getting extreme spreads in the 20's and very good accuracy-

am8xanGl.jpg
UO1c4sJl.jpg
Fc9Ye0ol.jpg


35W
 
Think I will reclock my pet 45C load this weekend to see where they are. Haven't clocked them since load development. Once I work up a load to find the basline and limits, I just tweak a little to stay on target and keep the groups together. My load won't change but it will be of intrest to see how it shook out and make part of the record.

Give me a reason to do some shooting and reloading - yay!
 
Last edited:
Barmcd said:
I have three loads for my 45 Colt revolvers, 9.9 grs of Accurate No. 5, 7.4 gr. of Unique and 7.3 gr. of HP-38. If I point the muzzle up, and then bring it down to shoot, I get between 700-750 FPS out of the three loads. If I lower the muzzle of the gun, then raise it to shoot, the velocity is 100-200 FPS lower. I realize its caused by very little smokeless powder in a big case designed for black powder. Is there a way to fix this problem besides using Trail Boss which is impossible to find? Are there any other position insensitive powders?
Click to expand...
That’s a light and inconsistent load for #5 in my opinion.

I’m loading #2 to higher velocities than 700-750 fps, but you could get there @ std pressure at the top of Tier I loads.

@Walkalong replicated my Tier II load with his crony: #2 @ 8 gr, 255gr, lswc going ~830 fps IIRC.

#5 is going to like about .5 gr more at least, but 10.5/11 gr with that bullet will be Tier II Pressure- pleasant to shoot in the right gun; like a Blackhawk. Tier III doesn’t start until 13 gr w/ #5 and 255 gr lead; and ends at 15.5 gr. @ <30k in published data.

#2 is not position sensitive hardly at all, but neither are that position sensitive unless you are in the lighter range.
 
Last edited:

Standard Pressure, Heavy .45 Colt Question

these are finally getting used A true blast from the past. Gosh, those were a blast to make! Unfortunately, all those notes are lost to history, but I do remember a few things : We used hot applied rifle lube, and those bullets should be amazingly hard: they are water dropped , and in the...
www.thehighroad.org

Well, I’m glad i checked my memory. He got 822 and 853.
see the entire thread; even though the thread is titled std pressure this was a Mid or Tier II load - just to clarify.
 
Barmcd said:
These are not the only shots I've chronographed. I loaded and fired upwards of 100 rounds trying to figure this out.
Click to expand...

Thanks for posting your data. Something else to consider... you may be completely out of the efficient burn zone for that weight of bullet and the velocity you are trying to push it at. I (and others) mentioned IMR4227 in a previous post. When I first used IMR4227, at starting loads, in the .41MAG, I was absolutely appalled at the poor accuracy and performance of it... and dirty? That's saying something, because I'm a Unique moonie. In a fit, I raised the charge about 1.5grn, and loaded the remainder of the 2# I had... just to get rid of the garbage. What I found.... in the higher charge weight... was a very efficient burn and excellent performance, and has since become my standard .41 carbine load. It was one of those 'Ah-ha!' moments about powder burn efficiency, and particularly with slow powders... even something like Unique.

Fast powders, like TiteGroup, burn so quickly that case position matters little... but you pay for that with very steep pressure curves.

At a nominal velocity of 700fps, that may not be enough to not only burn well, but stabilize that fat, heavy bullet. All of my 250-255grn .45 Colt loads have (had) a starting velocity of 800fps, and a target of 850fps, in a handgun.
 
styles said:
That’s a light and inconsistent load for #5 in my opinion.

I’m loading #2 to higher velocities than 700-750 fps, but you could get there @ std pressure at the top of Tier I loads.

@Walkalong replicated my Tier II load with his crony: #2 @ 8 gr, 255gr, lswc going ~830 fps IIRC.

#5 is going to like about .5 gr more at least, but 10.5/11 gr with that bullet will be Tier II Pressure- pleasant to shoot in the right gun; like a Blackhawk. Tier III doesn’t start until 13 gr w/ #5 and 255 gr lead; and ends at 15.5 gr. @ <30k in published data.

#2 is not position sensitive hardly at all, but neither are that position sensitive unless you are in the lighter range.
Click to expand...
Charlie98 said:
Thanks for posting your data. Something else to consider... you may be completely out of the efficient burn zone for that weight of bullet and the velocity you are trying to push it at. I (and others) mentioned IMR4227 in a previous post. When I first used IMR4227, at starting loads, in the .41MAG, I was absolutely appalled at the poor accuracy and performance of it... and dirty? That's saying something, because I'm a Unique moonie. In a fit, I raised the charge about 1.5grn, and loaded the remainder of the 2# I had... just to get rid of the garbage. What I found.... in the higher charge weight... was a very efficient burn and excellent performance, and has since become my standard .41 carbine load. It was one of those 'Ah-ha!' moments about powder burn efficiency, and particularly with slow powders... even something like Unique.

Fast powders, like TiteGroup, burn so quickly that case position matters little... but you pay for that with very steep pressure curves.

At a nominal velocity of 700fps, that may not be enough to not only burn well, but stabilize that fat, heavy bullet. All of my 250-255grn .45 Colt loads have (had) a starting velocity of 800fps, and a target of 850fps, in a handgun.
Click to expand...
I'm shooting a Uberti Cattleman 1873 Army clone with a 5 1/2" barrel. When I worked up loads, I went up to the maximum charge in the Hornady manual which is 10.4 grains of Accurate No 5. which gave me 750 FPS and considerably more flash and recoil than 9.9 grains at 700 FPS. The Winchester and Remington 250 grain Cowboy loads I chronographed gave me just under 700 FPS. That's why I chose the 9.9 grain load, the extra 50 FPS didn't seem worth it. I just checked the Hogdon Data site. While 9.9 gr. of Accurate No. 5 is the next to highest load in the Hornady manual, its the starting load on the Hogdon Data site with 11.0 gr being maximum.

In addition to using Bullseye and Tight Group, I'll try 10.4 and 11 gr. of No. 5 to see what happens. With no way to measure pressure I'm hesitant to go over published loads.

One other data point. I don't see much variation in velocity shooting my loads out of a Rossi R92 with a 20" barrel. I see consistent velocities in the 900+ range.
 
Last edited:
That seems odd to me; are you extremely confident in the data? my blackhawks are only 4 5/8.
 
Big picture I would consult the Lee vmd chart and see what the best case fill you can get in an acceptable burn rate... thinking red dot/promo or green dot would be good uptions. I don't shoot 45c pistol but will continue to do the same exercise in my 45c rifle.... herco is supposed to be a good option as well. All big flake powders while TB is absent.
 
Barmcd said:
I'm shooting a Uberti Cattleman 1873 Army clone with a 5 1/2" barrel. When I worked up loads, I went up to the maximum charge in the Hornady manual which is 10.4 grains of Accurate No 5. which gave me 750 FPS and considerably more flash and recoil than 9.9 grains at 700 FPS. The Winchester and Remington 250 grain Cowboy loads I chronographed gave me just under 700 FPS. That's why I chose the 9.9 grain load, the extra 50 FPS didn't seem worth it. I just checked the Hogdon Data site. While 9.9 gr. of Accurate No. 5 is the next to highest load in the Hornady manual, its the starting load on the Hogdon Data site with 11.0 gr being maximum.

In addition to using Bullseye and Tight Group, I'll try 10.4 and 11 gr. of No. 5 to see what happens. With no way to measure pressure I'm hesitant to go over published loads.

One other data point. I don't see much variation in velocity shooting my loads out of a Rossi R92 with a 20" barrel. I see consistent velocities in the 900+ range.
Click to expand...
I like 10.3 of #5 in a Ruger NV w/ 255SWC and its a handful. I would approach anything more than 10 cautiously in the Uberty. It may not blow but it will squeek and stress it plus screws will loosen. Groups will open also.

I might start at 9 and work towards 10 and see how things go first.
 
In a SAA clone, I’d switch to #2. the loads will be low case fill but it’s not position sensitive at all. Low flash. Good burn. All good. Just the danger of double charge if you don’t pay attention.
 
OS/N said:
I like 10.3 of #5 in a Ruger NV w/ 255SWC and its a handful. I would approach anything more than 10 cautiously in the Uberty. It may not blow but it will squeek and stress it plus screws will loosen. Groups will open also.

I might start at 9 and work towards 10 and see how things go first.
Click to expand...

The Uberti's are capable of handling the same loads as the New Vaquero's and both revolvers can be loaded up to 23K psi. To get to those pressures one would have to load over 13 gr. of AA #5 with a 250 gr. bullet.

Yesterday I uncorked a bottle of Titegroup and tried it in my 45 Colt. It appears to burn and little slower than Bullseye and just a little goes a long ways. Good accuracy though.

35W
 
Walkalong said:
Nothing short of Trail Boss or Tin Star in the proper burn rate will give good enough
fill to help position sensitivity in .45 Colt. It's like trying to fill a black hole in space.
Click to expand...
I'm under the impression that's for standard pressure loads with a 250-255. I don't know if the additional powder of a lighter bullet makes it better or worse. A heavy bullet help? I haven't really worked on 45c like 38 and 357.
 
Barmcd said:
One other data point. I don't see much variation in velocity shooting my loads out of a Rossi R92 with a 20" barrel. I see consistent velocities in the 900+ range.
Click to expand...

...and you will. The longer barrel uses up every bit of a fast or mid powder... making them very efficient, if not necessarily producing top velocities.

I understand your reluctance to beat yourself to death with heavy loads. Back Home, Years Ago, when I was young and indestructible, with my .45 Colt Ruger Vaquero, I used to load all manner of 'Ruger Only' loads for it... because, you know, moar is betterer. These days I'm a mid-range kind of guy, at least in the revovlers. Another avenue you may have would be lighter bullets... 200 or 225grn'ish... and a faster powder like TiteGroup or RedDot. Something to consider.


AJC1 said:
I'm under the impression that's for standard pressure loads with a 250-255. I don't know if the additional powder of a lighter bullet makes it better or worse. A heavy bullet help?
Click to expand...


The 255grn .45 bullet is a LOT of bullet to push, Newton's Law being what it is, you are going to see some recoil, and particularly using faster powders... which can be more snappy than pushy, if you see what I mean.

35 Whelen said:
Yesterday I uncorked a bottle of Titegroup and tried it in my 45 Colt. It appears to burn and little slower than Bullseye and just a little goes a long ways. Good accuracy though.
Click to expand...

I've used TiteGroup in both .45 Colt, and .44SPC (when I had it.) TG works well enough, but I don't like the heat it creates. ...but... it DOES go a long way, fo sho. I much prefer RedDot there, if I have to use a fast powder.
 
Charlie98 said:
...and you will. The longer barrel uses up every bit of a fast or mid powder... making them very efficient, if not necessarily producing top velocities.

I understand your reluctance to beat yourself to death with heavy loads. Back Home, Years Ago, when I was young and indestructible, with my .45 Colt Ruger Vaquero, I used to load all manner of 'Ruger Only' loads for it... because, you know, moar is betterer. These days I'm a mid-range kind of guy, at least in the revovlers. Another avenue you may have would be lighter bullets... 200 or 225grn'ish... and a faster powder like TiteGroup or RedDot. Something to consider.





The 255grn .45 bullet is a LOT of bullet to push, Newton's Law being what it is, you are going to see some recoil, and particularly using faster powders... which can be more snappy than pushy, if you see what I mean.



I've used TiteGroup in both .45 Colt, and .44SPC (when I had it.) TG works well enough, but I don't like the heat it creates. ...but... it DOES go a long way, fo sho. I much prefer RedDot there, if I have to use a fast powder.
Click to expand...
Any idea how much more "fluffy" promo is? It's talked about but I've never seen a red dot to promo comparison?
 
AJC1 said:
I don't know if the additional powder of a lighter bullet makes it better or worse. A heavy bullet help? I haven't really worked on 45c like 38 and 357.
Click to expand...
Heavier bullet helps, lighter makes it worse. Additional powder always "helps", but we run into to nasty things like over pressure and more recoil than we want when we do. The .45 Colt runs at really low pressure, which exacerbates the problem. It's not hard to point the barrel up before firing when playing at the range. No finger on the trigger until you are back down on target of course. Field conditions can be problematic.
 
Walkalong said:
Heavier bullet helps, lighter makes it worse. Additional powder always "helps", but we run into to nasty things like over pressure and more recoil than we want when we do. The .45 Colt runs at really low pressure, which exacerbates the problem. It's not hard to point the barrel up before firing when playing at the range. No finger on the trigger until you are back down on target of course. Field conditions can be problematic.
Click to expand...
That's good news to me as the only mold I ordered was a 280 grain for a 454... 😁
 
Walkalong said:
Heavier bullet helps, lighter makes it worse. Additional powder always "helps", but we run into to nasty things like over pressure and more recoil than we want when we do.
Click to expand...

There is no denying the .45 is a big hole, so to speak... and has it's problems, or, perhaps challenges... for a handloader. At the end of the day, the .45 may not be the right answer... for a light-recoiling load with good numbers. Trade the .45 in for a .38/.357...
 
Barmcd said:
Is there a way to fix this problem besides using Trail Boss which is impossible to find? Are there any other position insensitive powders?
Click to expand...

Try black powder?

Its common for a pointed up and lowered muzzle to gain velocity vs one lifted from muzzle down. Learned this over and over at matches where ammunition must make a given power factor.
 
Charlie98 said:
Quite true. It's one of the reasons I don't use IMR4227 for ammunition typically intended for pistols, rather, saving it for my rifles... .41 and .45, respectively. It's dandy there, and I don't feel so bad dumping twice as much powder... by weight... in, vs Unique. And, as you mention, it's not a very good 'mid-range' powder, either.



Again... I must be missing something. After you load your cartridges, the forces of recoil after the first shot certainly move that powder around in the case! Assuming you are muzzle up after recoil, that would already set the powder back at the primer. Cocking the pistol, or moving the pistol, would... again... move that powder around.

I would say... try this:

Shoot 10 rounds, carefully making sure the powder is at the back of the case. Then just shoot 10 more rounds. Did the difference show up on the target?
Click to expand...
Maybe that’s the real reason The Sundance Kid was better when he moved? 😁🤣
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Byla
  • Locked
The Ashtray Flies Again - 45 Colt
Replies
7
Views
508
GeoDudeFlorida
GeoDudeFlorida
A
Position sensitvity in low pressure revolver loads
Replies
9
Views
287
Thomasss
Thomasss
jski
  • Locked
Unique and 230 gr Berry’s 45 ACP +P
2
Replies
46
Views
2K
joneb
joneb
jski
  • Locked
A Tale of Two 45 Loads
Replies
11
Views
735
FROGO207
FROGO207
murf
  • Locked
powder position
2
Replies
38
Views
3K
murf
murf
Back
Top