45 Colt Loads and Position Sensitivity

[Charlie98]

Right, I have a new Uberti Cattleman and a new model Ruger Vaquero. I started at 8.0 and worked to 8.5. I couldn’t tell the difference shooting them but preferred the case fill. They drop out of the cylinders with a little tap. Primers are very rounded with zero signs of flattening.

I mention that because my standard .45 Colt pistol load is 9.5grn Unique under a 250-255grn cast... which is fine in a big frame Ruger (like my Vaquero was...) but that load pushes 20K PSI, which may be too much for some pistols. It's important to know what you have, and what the manufacturer says it can take.

 

[Barmcd]

Right, I have a new Uberti Cattleman and a new model Ruger Vaquero. I started at 8.0 and worked to 8.5. I couldn’t tell the difference shooting them but preferred the case fill. They drop out of the cylinders with a little tap. Primers are very rounded with zero signs of flattening.

The empty cases fall out of the cylinder on all the loads I’ve used. I just have to tip the muzzle up. Obviously, I haven’t made any really hot loads.

 

[black mamba]

N555, is this the right one? If so, how often do they get new shipments?

 

[Barmcd]

Well, just to bring this thread to a close. I tried all the suggested loads and all of them exhibit position sensitivity. If I hold the barrel down while cocking the firearm, the velocity is much lower than if I point the barrel up when cocking the gun. I think that's just the way its going to work unless Trailboss suddenly makes a comeback. Here are some examples, the first round the barrel is pointed down when cocking the gun vs the other five shots in which the barrel is pointed up. Some are very pronounced while Bullseye exhibited the least amount of deviation.

Shot List	Index	Velocity	Temperature	Barometric Pressure	Bullet Weight	Ft/lbs	Power Factor	Date
45 Colt 8.1 Unique	1	468	49F	30 in Hg	240	116.71	112	3/27/2024 10:21
45 Colt 8.1 Unique	2	760	49F	30 in Hg	240	307.78	182	3/27/2024 10:21
45 Colt 8.1 Unique	3	739	49F	30 in Hg	240	291.01	177	3/27/2024 10:21
45 Colt 8.1 Unique	4	749	49F	30 in Hg	240	298.94	179	3/27/2024 10:21
45 Colt 8.1 Unique	5	727	49F	30 in Hg	240	281.63	174	3/27/2024 10:21
45 Colt 8.1 Unique	6	754	49F	30 in Hg	240	302.94	180	3/27/2024 10:21
Average Velocity	700
Extreme Spread	292
Standard Deviation	114
Averate ft/lbs	267
Average Power Factor	167

Shot List	Index	Velocity	Temperature	Barometric Pressure	Bullet Weight	Ft/lbs	Power Factor	Date
45 Colt 6.3 gr. Tightgroup	1	584	49F	30 in Hg	240	181.74	140	3/27/2024 10:09
45 Colt 6.3 gr. Tightgroup	2	671	49F	30 in Hg	240	239.92	161	3/27/2024 10:09
45 Colt 6.3 gr. Tightgroup	3	650	49F	30 in Hg	240	225.14	156	3/27/2024 10:09
45 Colt 6.3 gr. Tightgroup	4	632	49F	30 in Hg	240	212.84	151	3/27/2024 10:09
45 Colt 6.3 gr. Tightgroup	5	667	49F	30 in Hg	240	237.07	160	3/27/2024 10:09
45 Colt 6.3 gr. Tightgroup	6	675	49F	30 in Hg	240	242.79	162	3/27/2024 10:09
Average Velocity	647
Extreme Spread	91
Standard Deviation	35
Averate ft/lbs	223
Average Power Factor	155

Shot List	Index	Velocity	Temperature	Barometric Pressure	Bullet Weight	Ft/lbs	Power Factor	Date
45 Colt 7.1 gr.Bullseye	1	673	49F	30 in Hg	240	241	161	3/27/2024 10:16
45 Colt 7.1 gr.Bullseye	2	734	49F	30 in Hg	240	287	176	3/27/2024 10:16
45 Colt 7.1 gr.Bullseye	3	744	49F	30 in Hg	240	295	178	3/27/2024 10:16
45 Colt 7.1 gr.Bullseye	4	752	49F	30 in Hg	240	301	180	3/27/2024 10:16
45 Colt 7.1 gr.Bullseye	5	723	49F	30 in Hg	240	279	173	3/27/2024 10:16
45 Colt 7.1 gr.Bullseye	6	742	49F	30 in Hg	240	293	178	3/27/2024 10:16
Average Velocity	728
Extreme Spread	79
Standard Deviation	29
Averate ft/lbs	283
Average Power Factor	174

 

[N555]

N555, is this the right one? If so, how often do they get new shipments?

They used to have cbi all the time maybe it got too popular. That looks like another pull down I would bet it's a spherical powder and is much denser than cbi.

 

[Jim Watson]

Some are very pronounced while Bullseye exhibited the least amount of deviation.

Right.
I found Titegroup to be overrated, I found it less position sensitive than 231 but more than 700X.

Practical Position Sensitivity: Consider your starting position, if you have your revolver in a holster, draw and raise it briskly to the target, where is the powder going to be? Right, all the way forward against the bullet.

The only bullet I have ever stuck with a reload was because the load was light, the bullet was light, and the OAL was long. The holster and draw put the powder too far from the primer to catch fire. The string of fire was bang, blap, blooey, pop, thump, nada. Fortunately the first five were merely erratic and the last round stuck. Opening the cylinder let the brass and unburnt powder fall out. There was scorched powder against the base of the stuck bullet. I seated the bullets deeper and tried again. Report and recoil felt normal and consistent with less airspace.

 

[N555]

Hey wasn't starline goin to make a "45spl" case that was just "shorter 45colt"?
When I realized my ideal 357mag load for short barrel guns could fit in a 38spl case no problem it eliminated any position sensitivity that there could have been and cut my SD and ES at least in half.

 

[Jim Watson]

1. Yes, there are the .45 Schofield and .45 Cowboy Special.

2. Your .357 load “could fit” in a .38 Special case. That’s nice. What do you reckon the chamber pressure is?

 

[Rodfac]

My normal .45 Colt load is 8.0-8.2gr Unique/250gr rnfp. Works very well in lever rifle or revolver.

Same for me....good loads for Missouri Bullet Co's 255 gr LSWC and Lyman's 454190 (the pointy one that's a duplicate of the 1870's Army load). My Ruger new Vaquero and Colt SAA both like that load....

Tho ..35 Whelen's suggestion of 7.0 gr of Bullseye shows what it can do...gotta try that one myself. Best regards, Rod

NV below with a pair of my horse fence grips. Rounds are Lyman's 454190 cast from wheel weight alloy (sized to 0.454"). 25 yd accuracy runs to 2.5" with this gun and a bit under 2" with the 7-1/2" bbl'd Colt.

​

 

[N555]

1. Yes, there are the .45 Schofield and .45 Cowboy Special.

2. Your .357 load “could fit” in a .38 Special case. That’s nice. What do you reckon the chamber pressure is?

It was less than a recommend start load and pobably around 25,000psi.
They send a 125gr bullet at about 1,050fps out of a 3 inch gun, way hotter than any sane 38spl load but just a meh load to a 357mag gun.
I don't even bother with 357 brass anymore, I have a buddy that trades me 2 or 3 some times four 38spl for each 357mag case, works for me.

 

[N555]

Starline has 45cowboy special and 45 Schofield brass in stock ready to ship.
The 45 cowboy special is a 45colt that's shortened to 45acp length so just use 45acp or 45autorim load data.
A 45colt sizer die and 45acp expander and seater dies is all one would need to start cranking them out.

 

[Bob Willman]

I have used Kapok over the powder to keep it in position for light loads. Cream-of-wheat also works in straight wall cases only - NOT BOTTLENECK BRASS! Don't ask me how I know. These were common solutions 60 years ago.

NRA Benefactor

 

[Jim Watson]

I read of light CAS .45s with caulk backer rod as a filler. I don't know if that is still being done. Might be coming back with the discontinuance of Trail Boss and Tin Star.
Many cap and ball cowboys use organic fillers like grits and cornmeal over their short range black powder charges. Only requires handling two powder flasks, just be sure to put in the powder first.

 

[Charlie98]

The 45 cowboy special is a 45colt that's shortened to 45acp length so just use 45acp or 45autorim load data.

Wouldn't the .45 Cowboy be, essentially, a rimmed .45ACP case? A rose by another name? Dunno... just curious.

I tried all the suggested loads and all of them exhibit position sensitivity.

How did they do at the target?

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Wouldn't the .45 Cowboy be, essentially, a rimmed .45ACP case? A rose by another name? Dunno... just curious.




How did they do at the target?

A rimmed .45ACP is a .45AutoRim. I have never seen a .45Cowpoke but I’ve loaded a bunch of .45AR and if anyone has position sensitive problems with them they must be trying hard to do it.

I think the volumes of the two are pretty close though. Loads for one ought to be safe for the other.

 

[Barmcd]

I've read of

Wouldn't the .45 Cowboy be, essentially, a rimmed .45ACP case? A rose by another name? Dunno... just curious.




How did they do at the target?

The POI changes from slowest to fastest. Those that have similar velocity have similar POIs. I only load 6 of each so it’s difficult to make a definitive statement that one shoots better than another.

On edit, the slower rounds have a POI slightly higher than higher velocity rounds.

 

[N555]

Wouldn't the .45 Cowboy be, essentially, a rimmed .45ACP case? A rose by another name? Dunno... just curious.




How did they do at the target?

45autorim is it's own thing and won't fit in anything but autorim guns. 45autorim has a really thick rim. Its leftover from WW1.
45autorim was supposed to have the same case capacity of a 45acp. At least that what my reloading manual says.

 

[Charlie98]

45autorim has a really thick rim.

I didn't know that. I don't know if I've ever seen a .45 AutoRim in the flesh.

 

[N555]

I didn't know that. I don't know if I've ever seen a .45 AutoRim in the flesh.

I only until recently had all but glanced over it in the reloading manuals. Now that starline makes that 45cowboy special case that uses 45acp and 45autorim load data all of a sudden autorim data is relevant.
The main difference between autorim and acp was the COAL, the revolver ammo doesn't have to fit in a 1911 mag.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

45autorim is it's own thing and won't fit in anything but autorim guns. 45autorim has a really thick rim. Its leftover from WW1.
45autorim was supposed to have the same case capacity of a 45acp. At least that what my reloading manual says.

Not quite. .45AR was introduced in 1920 to simplify the use of revolvers designed and made for .45ACP and half-moon clips. The rims of AR match the thickness of a clipped ACP.

 

[35 Whelen]

I only until recently had all but glanced over it in the reloading manuals. Now that starline makes that 45cowboy special case that uses 45acp and 45autorim load data all of a sudden autorim data is relevant.
The main difference between autorim and acp was the COAL, the revolver ammo doesn't have to fit in a 1911 mag.

Um, no. The 45 Auto Rim was designed for use in S&W 1917 45 ACP revolvers. The AR cartridge eliminates the need for ACP cases and moon clips. I have a 1917 and AR rounds are far easier to use than ACP rounds and moon clips. (One can fire ACP cartridges without moon clips, but most of the time they have to be knocked out of the chambers with something) And FWIW 45 ACP and 45 AR cases use exactly the same data.

35W

 

[.45Coltguy]

Lordy be! I've been loading 8.0-8.3gr Unique under a 250gr rnfp for a while now. Position sensitivity does not seem to be a problem. Other powders, maybe? Don't know.

 

[film495]

it is interesting. I always kind of figured the primer blasting through the hole would mix the lightweight power in the cartrdige pretty completely as combustion starts. I guess it really doesn't work that way in practice. Well, at least if you're shooting up, then the bullet has a little extra umph to reach an enemy plane, or if shooting down, well - then gravity is on your side. So, in practical application it evens itself out.

 

[Charlie98]

Lordy be! I've been loading 8.0-8.3gr Unique under a 250gr rnfp for a while now. Position sensitivity does not seem to be a problem. Other powders, maybe? Don't know.

That's kind of my thought. Statistics aside, I don't think any of my Unique-digesting cartridges go in benchrest arms, what bit of variation I get from inconsistent ignition doesn't seem to matter to the target...

 

[Rimfire McNutjob]

In looking at the OP's data, it's always his first shot that throws a wrench in things by almost doubling his ES. That seems like an unusual coincidence.