For self defense purposes, how does the .45LC (the round itself -- not the gun firing it) compare to other calibers (9mm? .357mag? .40S&W? .45ACP? etc.?) and what is the best commercial .45LC ammo out there for self defense purposes?
.45 LC ... where does it fall as a self defense round?
- Thread starter Alan Fud
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No brainer - .45acp.
The .45acp is the "replacement" for the .45 Colt
For big "D", I prefer the 200 gr Blazer. "Caldera" sized cavity.
Second choice is the [[[weak]]] Cowboy load,,,but only in my Winchester Trapper, not my Blackhawk 4 5/8" revolver. I agree, the Cowboy loads are somewhat anemic out of most revolvers. Out of a carbine, they are perfectly acceptable (ballistic-wise).
The .45acp is the "replacement" for the .45 Colt
For big "D", I prefer the 200 gr Blazer. "Caldera" sized cavity.
Second choice is the [[[weak]]] Cowboy load,,,but only in my Winchester Trapper, not my Blackhawk 4 5/8" revolver. I agree, the Cowboy loads are somewhat anemic out of most revolvers. Out of a carbine, they are perfectly acceptable (ballistic-wise).
45crittergitter
Member
Note that there are the original "blackpowder" level SAAMI spec ammo (14,000 psi), and more powerful stuff for modern stronger guns.
WW 225 gr. Silvertips and Federal 225 LHP are good low pressure ammo.
I agree that the Speer 200 JHP is good.
Don't forget the Cor-Bon with the 200 Speer JHP (+P), my preference.
WW 225 gr. Silvertips and Federal 225 LHP are good low pressure ammo.
I agree that the Speer 200 JHP is good.
Don't forget the Cor-Bon with the 200 Speer JHP (+P), my preference.
Sean Smith
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With a strong gun like a Ruger you can safely handload .45 Colt to be better than just about anything, really.
Alan,
I believe the .45 Colt is an excellent defensive round, and I respectfully take small exception to those who suggest it is essentially only a .45 ACP replacement. More specifically, the .45 ACP was developed -- almost a century ago -- to roughly duplicate .45 Colt ballistics. However, in the last 100 years numerous improvements in metallurgy, propellant chemistry, bullet design, and so forth have created a completely new realm for the .45 Colt.
At the STANDARD PRESSURES (non +P), some .45 Colt rounds essentially equal .45 ACP loads; to illustrate:
a) Standard pressure 225 grain .45 Colt Winchester Silver Tip -- 920 FPS/423 FtLbs
b) Standard pressure 230 grain .45 ACP Winchester JHP -- 880 FPS/396 FtLbs
Conversely, other STANDARD PRESSURE (non +P) .45 Colt loads BASICALLY PERFORM LIKE .45 ACP +Ps; for example:
a) Standard Pressure 200 grain .45 Colt CorBon JHP -- 1100 FPS/537 FtLbs
b) +P 200 grain .45 ACP CorBon -- 1050 FPS/490 FtLbs
Finally, the .45 Colt -- in a strong, properly designed revolver, such as most Rugers -- can FAR EXCEED .45 ACP loads and essentially duplicate .44 magnum ballistics; to document:
a) +P 265 grain .45 Colt CorBon BCHP -- 1350 FPS/1073 FtLbs
b) 260 grain .44 magnum CorBon BCHP -- 1450 FPS/1214 FtLbs
To summarize:
> At its lowest pressure loadings, modern .45 Colt defensive rounds essentially duplicate .45 ACP ballistics
> However, many commercially available STANDARD PRESSURE .45 Colt defensive rounds equal or exceed +P .45 ACP ballistics
> At top-end pressures, the .45 Colt effectively replicate .44 magnum ballistics -- PARTICULARLY FOR NON-COMMERCIAL HAND-LOADS.
I frequently carry a Smith 625-9 (four-inch Mountain Gun) loaded with Georgia Arms 200 grain STANDARD PRESSURE “Gold Dots†that provide 1100 FPS and ~540 foot pounds of muzzle energy -- and that’s in a non +P round. I respectfully suggest that is a darn potent defensive load.
I believe the .45 Colt is an excellent defensive round, and I respectfully take small exception to those who suggest it is essentially only a .45 ACP replacement. More specifically, the .45 ACP was developed -- almost a century ago -- to roughly duplicate .45 Colt ballistics. However, in the last 100 years numerous improvements in metallurgy, propellant chemistry, bullet design, and so forth have created a completely new realm for the .45 Colt.
At the STANDARD PRESSURES (non +P), some .45 Colt rounds essentially equal .45 ACP loads; to illustrate:
a) Standard pressure 225 grain .45 Colt Winchester Silver Tip -- 920 FPS/423 FtLbs
b) Standard pressure 230 grain .45 ACP Winchester JHP -- 880 FPS/396 FtLbs
Conversely, other STANDARD PRESSURE (non +P) .45 Colt loads BASICALLY PERFORM LIKE .45 ACP +Ps; for example:
a) Standard Pressure 200 grain .45 Colt CorBon JHP -- 1100 FPS/537 FtLbs
b) +P 200 grain .45 ACP CorBon -- 1050 FPS/490 FtLbs
Finally, the .45 Colt -- in a strong, properly designed revolver, such as most Rugers -- can FAR EXCEED .45 ACP loads and essentially duplicate .44 magnum ballistics; to document:
a) +P 265 grain .45 Colt CorBon BCHP -- 1350 FPS/1073 FtLbs
b) 260 grain .44 magnum CorBon BCHP -- 1450 FPS/1214 FtLbs
To summarize:
> At its lowest pressure loadings, modern .45 Colt defensive rounds essentially duplicate .45 ACP ballistics
> However, many commercially available STANDARD PRESSURE .45 Colt defensive rounds equal or exceed +P .45 ACP ballistics
> At top-end pressures, the .45 Colt effectively replicate .44 magnum ballistics -- PARTICULARLY FOR NON-COMMERCIAL HAND-LOADS.
I frequently carry a Smith 625-9 (four-inch Mountain Gun) loaded with Georgia Arms 200 grain STANDARD PRESSURE “Gold Dots†that provide 1100 FPS and ~540 foot pounds of muzzle energy -- and that’s in a non +P round. I respectfully suggest that is a darn potent defensive load.
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Thanks RWK. I've been thinking about getting a Taurus Raging Bull chambered in .454 Casull (under the assumption that if the gun can handle .454's, it can handle any commercially available hot .45LC round) and shooting .45LC's out of it. From what you are saying, it sounds like one gun can serve multiple purposes depending on what ammo is used. Thanks again.
Safe assumption. Good choice, assuming you have considered the reloading issue.
Back in the 80s, there were a lot of departments using the .357 as their standard round. But thanks to Dirty Harry, the word, "MAAAAAAGUM!!!!!" got bad rap, and it became uncomfortable to have officers carrying such a deadly round.
Be afraaaaiiid. Be VERY afraaaiiid!
(I suspect that this influenced the move to autos, but that's another debate for another time.)
In California, the Santa Ana PD decreed that officers could carry anything they wanted, as long as it wasn't An Eeeville Maaaaagnum! (TM) Oh, and no hollowpoints, boys. Nope - don't want to kill 'em too dead.
Local gunshops experienced a run on S&W model 25s in 45 LC, and the round of choice was the WW Silvertip.
They seemed happy with it.
Jim March
Member
Speer has just come out with a 250grain Gold Dot monster-hollowpoint-cavity slug specifically for the 45LC. It's designed to open just north of 800fps or so, and is probably at it's peak around 900 - 950, should do OK up through 1,050 - 1,100. It's basically the same concept as the 135grain "snubby special", just scaled up.
It's available right now in a Speer load, and expect it soon in Georgia Arms, Black Hills, Proload and the like.
This critter *might* prove to be THE ultimate defensive handgun round, period, bar none, end of discussion. If not, I expect it to be damned close.
It would be quite definately the first round I'd load in that 454.
It's available right now in a Speer load, and expect it soon in Georgia Arms, Black Hills, Proload and the like.
This critter *might* prove to be THE ultimate defensive handgun round, period, bar none, end of discussion. If not, I expect it to be damned close.
It would be quite definately the first round I'd load in that 454
.Uh Roy, isn't the 625 chambered for the .45ACP (at least that is what their website says)? Wouldn't the cylinder chamber be too short for the .45LC?
Alan,
No, Smith 625s/25s are chambered for either the .45 ACP or the .45 Colt -- but not both. My 625-9 -- and Jim’s post re the new, Speer, 250 grain Gold Dot -- concern the .45 Colt (not the .45 ACP).
S&W’s current production (pursuant to their website) includes only one .45 Colt revolver: Catalog number 160929 is a beautiful, blue Model 25 (see http://www.swfirearms.vista.com/store/index.php3?cat=301523&sw_activeTab=1). My experience is most (probably >80 percent) of Smith’s 625/25 revolvers produced over the last decades are chambered for the .45 ACP; however, more than a few are designed for the .45 Colt.
Regards.
No, Smith 625s/25s are chambered for either the .45 ACP or the .45 Colt -- but not both. My 625-9 -- and Jim’s post re the new, Speer, 250 grain Gold Dot -- concern the .45 Colt (not the .45 ACP).
S&W’s current production (pursuant to their website) includes only one .45 Colt revolver: Catalog number 160929 is a beautiful, blue Model 25 (see http://www.swfirearms.vista.com/store/index.php3?cat=301523&sw_activeTab=1). My experience is most (probably >80 percent) of Smith’s 625/25 revolvers produced over the last decades are chambered for the .45 ACP; however, more than a few are designed for the .45 Colt.
Regards.
popbang
Member
RWK, the idea for the Speer 250 grain hollow point is to give those using weaker actins (read not Rugers) a bullet that will expand at lower velocity. So, when the load comes out it should be safe for SAA's, and clones there of, and the S&W's. Just checked the Speer site and they list velocity at 900 fps. Looks like a good choice.
Mannlicher
Member
Personally, I find the .45 Colt to at the top of the heap, for self defense.
My 25-5 Smith is chambered for .45 Colt. I have an additional cylinder for .45 ACP as well. Both cartridges are accurate, and a pleasure to shoot. I have put thousands of rounds of pretty stout loads through it, and it is still in exellent condition. A few years back, I had the square butt converted to round. I installed all new springs, replaced the targer trigger and hammer, and had it hard chromed. I added Trijicon night sights, and hand carved Rosewood grips.
My 25-5 Smith is chambered for .45 Colt. I have an additional cylinder for .45 ACP as well. Both cartridges are accurate, and a pleasure to shoot. I have put thousands of rounds of pretty stout loads through it, and it is still in exellent condition. A few years back, I had the square butt converted to round. I installed all new springs, replaced the targer trigger and hammer, and had it hard chromed. I added Trijicon night sights, and hand carved Rosewood grips.
Jim March
Member
RWK: Speer's factory loading for the 250 Gold Dot is NOT a "+P" and has no "Ruger ONLY!!!" sort of warning. It's supposed to be doing about 875 - 900ish from a 4" tube. I wouldn't hesitate to shoot fairly large numbers of these through an S&W DA N-Frame-based 45LC. Stress on the gun will be *maybe* a hair higher than you'd see with Winchester Silvertips but the difference will be minor. The Cor-Bon 200s at 1,100 from a 4" will probably be a bit more stressful than the 250 Gold Dot (at least as Speer is loading them now, Georgia Arms or others may heat 'em up a tad). The Cor-Bon 200s in turn can also be shot rather extensively from at least the more recent batches of S&W 25s and at least modestly in early ones.
Mind you, 25s will last longer if even lighter loads ("cowboy action grade" plain lead) is used as the mainstay of practice. Hell, they'll more or less last forever if "babied" in that fashion.
Remember though, check two things rather regularly: make sure the screws are tight, and check for endshake once in a while. When endshake starts to appear, that's not good. When it starts to get worse, that's bad. Endshake allows the cylinder to act as a battering ram at both ends of the frame, and should be corrected once it develops. Yes, revolvers can run with "zero detectable endshake", and should be kept as close to that as possible.
Mind you, 25s will last longer if even lighter loads ("cowboy action grade" plain lead) is used as the mainstay of practice. Hell, they'll more or less last forever if "babied" in that fashion
.Remember though, check two things rather regularly: make sure the screws are tight, and check for endshake once in a while. When endshake starts to appear, that's not good. When it starts to get worse, that's bad. Endshake allows the cylinder to act as a battering ram at both ends of the frame, and should be corrected once it develops. Yes, revolvers can run with "zero detectable endshake", and should be kept as close to that as possible.
What about say in a Vaquero? Thought about getting a Vaquero for a long time (about six years) just to scratch the cowboy gun itch, and carrying a .45 ACP every day, I'd want a real cowboy caliber (.45 Colt) though I thought about .44 Mag for a while due to the .44 Special versatility thing. But if Speer comes out with that new load, maybe another look at the Colt is a good thing for last-ditch use (primary would be fun-gun, but having some JHPs nearby is always nice) and maybe a Marlin levergun in the same caliber?
Nightcrawler
Member
The Vaquero is as strong as a Ruger Redhawk; in other words, no factory ammo out there is going to hurt it.
Jim March
Member
Right. The Vaq *looks* more delicate than the Blackhawk due to the topstrap, but in practice strength is identical. Linebaugh or others will be happy to convert a Vaq to a five-shot 454Casull, 475Linebaugh or other "psycho handcannon load" with no qualms whatsoever. In stock form, the Vaq in 45LC will eat anything a 45LC Blackhawk will, so that would include the Buffalo Bore 325grain hardcast at 1,300+ .
A Vaq/BH (or Redhawk) in 45LC can eat "unlimited" diets of the "45LC jacketed combat loads" like the Winnie Silvertip, Cor-Bon 200 and the new Speer 250. The aforementioned BuffBore level loads...well, they *might* slowly shake a Ruger up, but they'll total your wrists first
. (And I mean that literally.)
With a modern S&W 25, change "unlimited" to "high". If it was my gun, I'd do range sessions involving 50 rounds of cowboy lead and ending with a cylinder or two of "jacketed combat", or a stouter lead load of similar horsepower (hardcast Keith @ 950fps, etc) that printed to the same place. Even daily, that regimen would let the gun run for many, many years without tuning. Weekly, which is more like what I'd want to do with a CCW gun, I'd probably be able to pass the gun to my kids with nothing fixed 'cept new springs once a decade.
(Gotta get around to the kid part first though...)
.A Vaq/BH (or Redhawk) in 45LC can eat "unlimited" diets of the "45LC jacketed combat loads" like the Winnie Silvertip, Cor-Bon 200 and the new Speer 250. The aforementioned BuffBore level loads...well, they *might* slowly shake a Ruger up, but they'll total your wrists first
. (And I mean that literally.)With a modern S&W 25, change "unlimited" to "high". If it was my gun, I'd do range sessions involving 50 rounds of cowboy lead and ending with a cylinder or two of "jacketed combat", or a stouter lead load of similar horsepower (hardcast Keith @ 950fps, etc) that printed to the same place. Even daily, that regimen would let the gun run for many, many years without tuning. Weekly, which is more like what I'd want to do with a CCW gun, I'd probably be able to pass the gun to my kids with nothing fixed 'cept new springs once a decade.
(Gotta get around to the kid part first though
...)Jim March
Member
Sidenote: right now the Speer 135 and 250 projectiles are available in Speer cases, and as reload components. But they *apparantly* are not being released in quantity to Proload, GA, Black Hills and the like. Not yet. They'll fill their own pipeline first I guess.
I would expect Georgia Arms to load them first, yet their website is the slowest with updates. If you're buying in bulk, it might pay to call up GA and see what their status is. The 250 has been out longer and may be shipping already.
http://www.georgia-arms.com
I would expect Georgia Arms to load them first, yet their website is the slowest with updates. If you're buying in bulk, it might pay to call up GA and see what their status is. The 250 has been out longer and may be shipping already.
http://www.georgia-arms.com
fastbolt
Member
I've always considered the .45 Colt ... or .45 Long Colt, if you prefer to think of it that way ... as a decent, viable cartridge.
When I first entered L/E there were a handful of folks in my agency that carried older 25-5's, and even a couple of folks that carried 25-2's, for that matter.
In my personal opinion, the "limitations" of it's "effectiveness" as a defensive cartridge have been caused by the limited number of available bullet designs. That's been changing in recent years, hasn't it?
Since it's generally considered that "effectiveness" is mostly dependant on the proper placement, and then sufficent depth of penetration & expansion, of whatever caliber is being used for defensive purposes ... (the often hotly debated issues notwithstanding) ... as long as the .45 Colt can deliver similar performance, with modern expanding bullet designs, I don't see why it couldn't fulfill MY perceived defensive handgun caliber needs.
Of course, then you DO need to consider the platform to be used, and its advantages/disadvantages for each individual shooter.
I still have a Ruger Blackhawk 4 5/8" Convertible chambered in both .45 Colt & .45 ACP, and while the SA design makes it "unapproved" for an off weapon, as long as I'm still actively employed, I still find it a very pleasant and enjoyable revolver for occasional range practice.
If I came across a nicely done 3-4" barreled, 6-shot DA revolver chambered in .45 Colt ... I just might decide to add it to my off duty revolvers before I retire. I always sort of regretted not also getting the .45 Colt version of the 5 1/2" Redhawk, when I got the .44 Magnum version ...
The Redhawk is a large and heavy revolver, but it's always proven to be very controllable for me ...
This current M25 is nice, but I'd prefer stainless for "finish durability" (and my innate laziness), and I'd like to have the replaceable front sight posts, although I suppose I could simply switch it out for a brass bead post (which is what I installed on the 629 Classic I sometimes use for off duty use).
When I first entered L/E there were a handful of folks in my agency that carried older 25-5's, and even a couple of folks that carried 25-2's, for that matter.
In my personal opinion, the "limitations" of it's "effectiveness" as a defensive cartridge have been caused by the limited number of available bullet designs. That's been changing in recent years, hasn't it?
Since it's generally considered that "effectiveness" is mostly dependant on the proper placement, and then sufficent depth of penetration & expansion, of whatever caliber is being used for defensive purposes ... (the often hotly debated issues notwithstanding) ... as long as the .45 Colt can deliver similar performance, with modern expanding bullet designs, I don't see why it couldn't fulfill MY perceived defensive handgun caliber needs.
Of course, then you DO need to consider the platform to be used, and its advantages/disadvantages for each individual shooter.
I still have a Ruger Blackhawk 4 5/8" Convertible chambered in both .45 Colt & .45 ACP, and while the SA design makes it "unapproved" for an off weapon, as long as I'm still actively employed, I still find it a very pleasant and enjoyable revolver for occasional range practice.
If I came across a nicely done 3-4" barreled, 6-shot DA revolver chambered in .45 Colt ... I just might decide to add it to my off duty revolvers before I retire. I always sort of regretted not also getting the .45 Colt version of the 5 1/2" Redhawk, when I got the .44 Magnum version ...
The Redhawk is a large and heavy revolver, but it's always proven to be very controllable for me ...
This current M25 is nice, but I'd prefer stainless for "finish durability" (and my innate laziness), and I'd like to have the replaceable front sight posts, although I suppose I could simply switch it out for a brass bead post (which is what I installed on the 629 Classic I sometimes use for off duty use).
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Jeff OTMG
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RBCD 120gr is going over 2000 fps at standard pressure, so it is safe in a S&W 25-5 or old SA, once you exceed 4" of barrel. If a 115gr 9mm at 1350 fps or 135gr .40 S&W at 1250 fps is good, then the RBCD should be even better.
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