.45 LC ... where does it fall as a self defense round?

[Selfdfenz]

I read a story in SGN (?) an issue or so back stating the original 250/255 gr black power load in the 45 LC clocked 1000 fps. If that is true, it appears the Cowboys had a pretty effective weapon. Don't imagine it expanded too well but it would sure get through a heavy winter coat and still do something.
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[MrMurphy]

I believe Taurus makes some Bulldog-sized midget .45 Colts..... might want to look into those.

 

[Majic]

Don't imagine it expanded too well but it would sure get through a heavy winter coat and still do something.

I sincerely hope you don't think they used jacketed bullets either. A soft cast bullet will mushroom nicely at that velocity.

 

[Selfdfenz]

"sincerely hope you don't think they used jacketed bullets either"

Well no, as a matter of fact I did not, but how did you come up with that based on my comment?



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[Majic]

but how did you come up with that based on my comment?

....from your comment of not imagining that the bullet wouldn't expand very well at 1000fps.

 

[Selfdfenz]

Well, that doesn't directly lead to an assumption regarding Cowboys and jacketed bullets IMO.

I've loaded, shot and retrieved a fair number of pure lead slugs (including my 45 LC pure lead and alloys slug reloads and others) from any number of substrates. They do expand but not necessarily in a predictable way and certainly not to the predictable level of a jacketed HP of modern design. But that's just my experience. I think you used the term mushroom which means something very specific to me and something a fair number of pure lead projectiles don't do in a predictable or reproducable manner.

I would characterize that pure lead does is more deformation than controlled or predictable expansion. Again, just my opinion based on my personal set of definitions.

My original post points not to the poor character of the 45 LC as a man stopper but the opposite. For it's time it was effective and I think it still is.
I don't think the fact that there was pure lead 250 gr slug sitting atop BP cowboy loads was either good or bad. Just the facts. It was effective and I said so.

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[Majic]

If a lead bullet expands, deforms, or mushrooms at all then it has fulfilled it's requirements. It is now a greater diameter than when it left the bore. No one said or even expect lead bullets to expand to predictable and uniform sizes. You are redefining the term mushroom and then expect it to be predictable and repeatable. The term originated when people saw that the bullet would deformed and somewhat resembled a mushroom long before the development of the bullet jacket. Why you add the jacketed bullets for comparison is something I don't understand. The jacketed bullet had been in use for sometime before it was learned to open the nose of the jacket so the bullet could behave as it did in the non jacketed form. It has no bearing on the performance of non-jacketed lead alloy bullet.

 

[Selfdfenz]

I didn't interject jacketed bullets, you did.

And like I said, my definitions. Can't speak to yours.

"You are redefining the term mushroom and then expect it to be predictable and repeatable. "

Not just me. All the major bullet manufacturers of modern SD and hunting projectiles spend considerable time and money precisely to develope predictability and uniformaty into the expansion event as assessed by actual performance in different types of media. The jack is part of controlling that equation for JHP. No?

That was not the case back in the cowboy days to any extent I am aware of.

If the totallity of uniform expansion/uniform mushrooming/penetration/retained energy and retained mass etc for pure lead projectiles was superior to that of modern day JHP fired at equal velocities we would still be using pure lead slugs would we not.

"If a lead bullet expands, deforms, or mushrooms at all then it has fulfilled it's requirements."

My point is that pur lead projectiles may in fact "expands, deforms, or mushrooms" but it may of may not fulfill it's reguirements. Guess it depends on where the limbo bar is set, technically speaking.

What we are arguing about are our own person definitions and biasis, not the physics and metalurgy of the matter.
Sorry for the spelling, late for work.
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[Dwayne Russell]

For self defense purposes, how does the .45LC (the round itself -- not the gun firing it) compare to other calibers ?

There is an old saying that applies very nicely in this situation.

"If you shoot a man with a Colt 45 and he is still standing . . . . . . walk around behind him and see what he is propped up against"

That round has probably killed more people than any other since 1873.

 

[1911 guy]

Original rounds and reloads

The original rounds were comerable to one another, .45LC and .45ACP. Very similar bullet weights at very similar velocities. The army wanted an autoloader, so the ACP round became standard and revolvers went. Reloading, however, changes things significantly because of more efficient propellants and stronger revolvers, metalurgy wise. Store bought, I'd compare it to a .45ACP, handloaded, you might be able to stoke it up to near .44Mag levels, depending on the strength of your revolver.

 

[MCgunner]

Personally, I prefer a good 9mm +P to .45. Ballistically as effective and in a smaller package for carry. Forget the "big bullet". It ain't that big, just 0.100" bigger than the 9, one TENTH of an inch. The nine makes as much energy and its velocity will make bullet expansion more assured.

I've never really loaded my .45 colt for self defense. I load it with a 300 grain XTP Hornady to about 1200 ft/sec. That's pretty much .44 magnum equivalent. The gun I cronographed has a 4 5/8" barrel. If I were to load it for self defense, I'd push that sort of energy level, something shy of 1200 ft lbs IIRC, but use the Speer 200 grain JHP. That bullet would probably be up around 1500fps+ Imagine the wound THAT would make. .45ACP ain't even in the same universe with that load. Now, the problem is if you don't handload, you can't get loads like that. But, you can still find available loads that are better than .45ACP as others here have mentioned. Doesn't Cor Bon make something in .45 colt???? My loads are fired out of an extremely strong Ruger Blackhawk. I wouldn't use 'em in any DA revolver. That's another problem for the .45 Colt and self defense. Even the DAs that are available are too big for CCW, anyway. A .45 ACP in a compact auto is a lot more practical to carry.

 

[Pilot]

The Vaquero is as strong as a Ruger Redhawk; in other words, no factory ammo out there is going to hurt it.

Are yout alking about the old Vaqueros or new ones? The new Vaq's have a lighter frame and is more of a Colt SAA clone instead of a modified Blackhawk. I would not load high pressure rounds into a new Vaq like I would a Blackhawk or Redhawk.

 

[GarrettJ]

Maybe this is a little off topic.

I have a Blackhawk Convertable, with cylinders in both .45 Colt & .45 ACP. I find that shooting ACP through the gun is consistently more accurate than shooting .45 Colt, in spite of the big "jump" the bullet has to make before engaging the rifling. This holds true for both factory ammo and reloads.

But then, I remember shooting some CCI Blazer 200 gr. JHPs in .45 Colt that were exceptionally accurate.

It was suggested to me that the rate of twist on the barrel is the same as what Ruger uses on their pistols. I don't know what the twist rate is, but it seems more suited to lighter (relatively) bullet weights in the 200 to 230 gr. range, as opposed to 255 gr. bullets.

 

[Marshall]

My Model 25 in this picture is stoked with Cor Bon's 1100 fps rounds and the speedloader is holding Silvertips. Both are pussycats in this gun. Cor Bon has a new .45 Colt round out now in the DPX line. 45 COLT+P 225 GR. DPX 1200 FPS/720FTLBS. I haven't used these yet but would hesitate using them in my Model 25. I wouldn't want to go too much more stout, except for a few shot's here and there like for hunting. I haven't shot the Big Gold Dots yet, I haven't found any locally and just haven't ordered any for some reason.

 

[Moonclip]

That round has probably killed more people than any other since 1873.[/QUOTE]

I seriously doubt that but in it's day I'm sure it was used quite a bit. Actually though I though the 44/40 was considered to be the #1 in this regard except for nowadays probably the 9x19 has taken over for this dubious honor in PISTOL calibers.

As for 45LC effectiveness, depends on the load. With the low pressure Fed and Win loadings, maybe a little less effective than 45acp. With the Cor Bon and such, about equal to 45acp and with the real strong hunting loads like the Rugers can take, about 44mag or better performance.

Yes LBPD as well as a few other PDs here and there had officers use 25-5's on an individual basis but the large frame big bore revolver never really seemed to catch on with LE even in the revolvers heydey it seems.

 

[MCgunner]

Maybe this is a little off topic.

I have a Blackhawk Convertable, with cylinders in both .45 Colt & .45 ACP. I find that shooting ACP through the gun is consistently more accurate than shooting .45 Colt, in spite of the big "jump" the bullet has to make before engaging the rifling. This holds true for both factory ammo and reloads.

But then, I remember shooting some CCI Blazer 200 gr. JHPs in .45 Colt that were exceptionally accurate.

It was suggested to me that the rate of twist on the barrel is the same as what Ruger uses on their pistols. I don't know what the twist rate is, but it seems more suited to lighter (relatively) bullet weights in the 200 to 230 gr. range, as opposed to 255 gr. bullets.

All I can say to that is my 4 5/8 inch blackhawk is capable of 1" groups at 25 yards from a ransom rest the club has...somewhere...haven't been able to find it lately, but that's another story.

That accuracy is with two loads, a light 255 grain flat point load and a very hot 300 grain Hornady XTP load. Revolver accuracy doesn't get a whole lot better. I don't have an ACP cylinder for it. I could do up a load with the same bullet weights as ACP, I guess, but I haven't bothered. I like that big flat point chunk of lead. Looks like a friggin' artillery round. My .45 Colts are outdoor use, don't load it for self defense unless it's from a bear or lion or something.

 

[Jim March]

Pilot: look at the dates on the messages: what you quote me saying was written before the New Vaquero was even rumored at.

The New Vaquero is NOT as strong as previous Vaqs built on the New Model Blackhawk frame...which in turn is the same size as Ruger's original 44Mag frame.

The NewVaq most definately is NOT a 44Mag-grade frame.

Check out the Buffalo Bore pages on 45LC+P ammo - they specifically say the NewVaq isn't appropriate:

http://buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm

In 45LC the NewVaq should be treated to the same level of ammo power as an S&W 45LC DA revolver like the 25 or any other "near clone" of the Colt SAA such as the USFA Rodeo, Taurus Gaucho or Beretta Stampede (or a post-WW2 Colt SAA). I would shoot middling levels of the various combat JHPs through one such as the Corbon 200gr at 1,100fps or the Speer 250 at 900ish. And there are sources of hardcast in the 250/260 grain range at 1,000fps that maximize what these guns can do...the BufBore page has some examples.

I own a New Vaq but I chose 357.

 

[stevelyn]

The original rounds were comerable to one another, .45LC and .45ACP. Very similar bullet weights at very similar velocities. The army wanted an autoloader, so the ACP round became standard and revolvers went. Reloading, however, changes things significantly because of more efficient propellants and stronger revolvers, metalurgy wise. Store bought, I'd compare it to a .45ACP, handloaded, you might be able to stoke it up to near .44Mag levels, depending on the strength of your revolver.

The .45 ACP was more or less a duplication of the .45 Schofield load which was downloaded and shortened from the original .45 Colt cartridge.

The .45 Colt load was loaded w/ about 40 grains of blackpowder. The downloaded version was 28 grains. The Schofield cartridge was shortend for S&W guns and was the cartridge the Army eventually issued for both the Colt and S&W guns.
For the consumer market, .45 Colts were loaded to original specs.

 

[Terry Mulligan]

Colt Cowboy

Assuming I do most of my range shooting with standard cowboy loads, will a modern Colt Cowboy handle the standard pressure Speer 250gr Gold Dots as a self defense round?

 

[JTQ]

Man, I was reading this thread and began thinking, I don't know a lot of these posters. Maybe this is a sub forum I don't frequent very much. Then I realized this is a thread started in 2004! In my defense, I did begin to recognize the forum names when it was reopened in 2006.

Terry, we'll count this as a "Mulligan" (I just couldn't resist). We don't usually reopen 10 year old dormant threads. You're usually better off starting a new thread with your question.

Sorry, I don't know the answer to your question, but somebody should be by soon with the answer.

By the way, welcome to the forum.

 

[Terry Mulligan]

Help!

For the life of me I can't figure out how to open a new thread. What am I missing?

 

[Terry Mulligan]

Self-defense ammo for Colt Cowboy revolver

Thanks JTQ. Being new to this forum, I didn't see that this thread was 10 years old. I guess my question should now be what ammo do folks think would be good for self-defense that a Colt Cowboy could handle?

 

[JTQ]

For the life of me I can't figure out how to open a new thread. What am I missing?

Terry, your best bet would be going to the sub forum, "Handguns: Revolvers". That would get the revolver guys, who would know the most about your handgun, most involved.

Handguns: Revolvers http://www.thehighroad.org/forumdisplay.php?f=32

Once there, in the upper left area, is a blue "button" that says "New Tread" inside it. Click on that button, and type away.

 

[Terry Mulligan]

Thanks

A bunch!

 

[medic15al]

Here are some full load black powder velocities if any are interested:

The guns used are a Pietta (Heritage Big Bore) 4 3/4in, Cimarron Old Model P 5 1/2in, and a Uberti Old Model P 7 1/2in.

The load is 40 grns of FFFG (3F) Olde Eynsford under a 250grn PRS Big Lube bullet. All loads fired 10 feet from chrono.

4 3/4 Bbl Pietta:

1. 925
2. 903
3. 927
4. 923
5.934
Average 922.4

Cimarron 5 1/2 Bbl :

1. 1004
2. 967
3. 1048
4. 1070
5. 1047
Average 1027.2

Uberti 7 1/2 Bbl:

1. 1028
2. 1049
3. 1018
4. 1026
5. 1010
Average 1026.2