CraigC
Sixgun Nut
The .45Colt doesn't outrun the .44Mag until you get to 50,000psi.
.45 long Colt for deer from a rifle - yes or no?
- Thread starter Hokkmike
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Let me run QuickLoad on that....
Meanwhile for entertainment....
http://www.sixguns.com/range/beyondthe44.htm
https://www.johnlinebaughcustomsixguns.com/writings
Meanwhile for entertainment....
http://www.sixguns.com/range/beyondthe44.htm
https://www.johnlinebaughcustomsixguns.com/writings
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
No need for QuickLoad, we have actual data and actual testing, from actual guns.
Yes, from the article:
"The sixguns and loads that really take the .45 Colt beyond the .44 Magnum are custom propositions."
Strong 45 Colt loads can approach or near equal if not exceed some .44 Magnum loads. The idea that a .45 Colt, rifle at that shooting "Ruger" loads, cannot be used ethically for deer sized game is simply wrong. Every cartridge has limitations but if a strong .45LC (not those typical cowboy/antique loads) cannot take deer then neither can .357 Magnum or .44 Magnum.
DocRock
member
Facts don’t matter. Craig knows everything.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Far from it but this I do know. Dispense with the personal nonsense and post data, if you have it.
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/a-blurb-about-the-44mag-and-45colt.851219/
The 45 Colt will out run (go faster) every 44 Mag load for equal pressures, equal bullet weights, same powder types. John Linebaugh wrote extensively about this fact. John called this “efficiency”.
This is fact for two simple reasons:
1. A 45 Colt bullet has less bore bearing surface than a same weight 44 Mag. The 44 Mag bullet is always longer, thus more friction.
2. A 45 Colt case is larger diameter and the equal pressure will put more force on the base of 45 bullet.
Same can be said for any 1.285” case length. 480 Ruger faster than 45 Colt > 44 Mag > 41 Mag > 357 Mag ......
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Gee, I never read John Linebaugh's article before. 
The problem with the Linebaugh article, as I wrote in the other thread, is that it is long outdated and slanted. Two things have happened since it was penned in the 1980's (which was when I first became aware of Linebaugh and his work). The .44 has much better bullets available and much better data. Linebaugh has made a living building tight chambered .45's out of perfectly serviceable .44's. So if he wrote that both cartridges essentially accomplish the same thing, how would that pan out? The truth is not some abstract idea that exists only in my head. It's all right there in the Hodgdon data. Read it.
Where the above statement becomes relevant is in guns where they can both be run at the same pressure, which is the 50,000psi level. Which is what I said.
The problem with the Linebaugh article, as I wrote in the other thread, is that it is long outdated and slanted. Two things have happened since it was penned in the 1980's (which was when I first became aware of Linebaugh and his work). The .44 has much better bullets available and much better data. Linebaugh has made a living building tight chambered .45's out of perfectly serviceable .44's. So if he wrote that both cartridges essentially accomplish the same thing, how would that pan out? The truth is not some abstract idea that exists only in my head. It's all right there in the Hodgdon data. Read it.
That's a snippet taken out of context. Yes, it is a fact but an irrelevant one. Why? Because the whole basis for "Ruger only" .45Colt loads is the fact that the guns are only 80% the strength of a comparable .44Mag. Namely, the large frame Ruger single action revolver. So while the above statement is technically true (obviously) it is also irrelevant for that reason. Which is why there is no 36,000psi .45Colt data. Only 30,000psi .45Colt data so that both operate at a 100% safety margin. In which case the .44Mag always maintains a ~100fps velocity advantage. Because that extra pressure is not for nothing. Comparing the .44Mag to the "Ruger only" .45Colt, they both essentially accomplish the same thing. What the .44 does with greater pressure, the .45 does with more powder.
Where the above statement becomes relevant is in guns where they can both be run at the same pressure, which is the 50,000psi level. Which is what I said.
Gee, I never read John Linebaugh's article before.
Where the above statement becomes relevant is in guns where they can both be run at the same pressure, which is the 50,000psi level. Which is what I said.
I stated assumptions (equal weights and pressures) and then two facts in post #107 easily proven mathematically, by anyone.
Those two facts cannot be refuted by anyone. Change the assumptions, and you are making a different argument.
Source Hodgdon Reloading guide on-line http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol
A 250 grain bullet H110 powder from a 45 Colt loaded to 30K CUP from a 7.25” barrel goes 1532 fps
A 240 grain bullet H110 powder from a 44 Mag loaded to 36.2K CUP from a 8.275” barrel goes 1522 fps
So I guess even if you change the assumptions, like using different barrel lengths, different pressures, different bullet weights, 1532 is still faster than 1522.
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That just doesn't make sense from first principles.
Biggest reason is that the 45 case has more overflow volume to start
45 Colt: 41.6gr H2O
44 Mag: 39.5gr H2O
and because when compared 44/45 bullets of equal weight, the necessarily longer 44 takes
up more of that case volume for the same OAL -- leaving even less room for powder.
Then generally means the 45 can achieve the same velocity for given bullet weight as the 44 -- at a lower pressure.
To compare at Corbon-Heavy levels using a 340gr bullet:
ACCURATE 45-340C: 340gr/0.85" long
ACCURATE 43-340C: 340gr/0.99" long
Seat them both at 1.66" (general max for Marlins)
45 Colt is left with 23gr of powder space
44 Mag is left with 17gr of powder space
Load them both to 30,000psi just to compare (19.3" barrel / Max velocity):
45 Colt / Hodgdon Lil'Gun /21.7gr (99%) / 1,514fps
44 Mag / Hodgdon Lil'Gun /16.5gr (102%) 1,347fps
Kick the 44Mag up to 36,000psi and leave the 45Colt at 30,000
45 Colt / Hodgdon Lil'Gun /21.7gr (99%) / 1,514fps
44 Mag / Hodgdon Lil'Gun /17.4gr 107(C) 1,414fps
Now we can argue all days long about how QuickLoad is "just a computer program," and "doesn't like straightwall" (both true)
But apples-to-apples, the 45Colt in a High-Strength action comes off pretty well.
Nothing East of the Mississippi can stand up to it, nor most things West....
postscript: I'm actually shooting that ACC 45-340C in my 45Colt Marlin using V-N110 at 1,370fps /24,000 psi.
Go higher? Sure.
But why?
.
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Let's not let the facts get in the way of a good internet who is wrong argument. .
Me, if Ruger offers a stainless .45LC 1894/1895 I will be getting that, if they only do stainless in the .44M then I will be getting that and a nice blued and wood .45LC. When we quit using antique loads the .44M has little on the .45LC and the .45LC is more fun to load for and does not require 50,000 PSI to achieve a dead deer.
What I really want is for Ruger to give me an 1895/336 in .454 that can also shoot the .45LC. I do not know if they can do that in the 1894 action due to the OAL of the .454?
.Me, if Ruger offers a stainless .45LC 1894/1895 I will be getting that, if they only do stainless in the .44M then I will be getting that and a nice blued and wood .45LC. When we quit using antique loads the .44M has little on the .45LC and the .45LC is more fun to load for and does not require 50,000 PSI to achieve a dead deer.
What I really want is for Ruger to give me an 1895/336 in .454 that can also shoot the .45LC. I do not know if they can do that in the 1894 action due to the OAL of the .454?
Steve Milbocker
Member
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
I said that if they are run at the same pressure, the .45 will yield more velocity. It should be painfully obvious that if you take two cartridges and load them with the same weight/configuration of bullet at the same pressure, the one with the greater case capacity will yield more velocity. That's actually my point, is that they HAVE to run the same pressure for the .45 to yield higher velocity. The problem with that statement is not whether or not it's true. It's whether or not it's relevant and it isn't relevant until we reach the so-called "Tier IV", which are 50,000psi loads for Redhawks, Super Redhawks and custom five-shot guns. Until we reach that threshold, there is a strength difference in the guns in question that cannot be ignored. A strength difference that requires .45 loads max out at 80% of the .44's pressure. So if you're gong to compare the two as they may be used by an individual with actual firearms, then you're comparing full pressure .44Mag to "Ruger only" .45Colt. In my testing, in two identical firearms, the .44Mag maintains an advantage.
Furthermore, that is the only load data where the .44 and .45 are loaded to the same pressure.
The Hodgdon data isn't enough by itself because those are test barrels in a controlled environment. I wouldn't make this argument based on raw load data alone. In actual guns with as few variables as possible, what I've posted is true. I've had this "discussion" many times and no data has ever been provided to refute it.
Furthermore, that is the only load data where the .44 and .45 are loaded to the same pressure.
The Hodgdon data isn't enough by itself because those are test barrels in a controlled environment. I wouldn't make this argument based on raw load data alone. In actual guns with as few variables as possible, what I've posted is true. I've had this "discussion" many times and no data has ever been provided to refute it.
No existing Marlin action is strong enough for the .454.
That part is definitely debatable. Particularly considering the .44 tends to penetrate better.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Pretty sure I said that the two achieve the same thing, the .44 with more pressure, the .45 with more powder.
If so... that works.
(lo siento mucho)
That's also one of the reasons I shoot a Swift rather than a 22-250.
The Swift gets me max 22-250 velocities at considerably lower (throat-eroding) pressure.
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4938622&postcount=12
(lo siento mucho
)That's also one of the reasons I shoot a Swift rather than a 22-250.
The Swift gets me max 22-250 velocities at considerably lower (throat-eroding) pressure.
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4938622&postcount=12
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Linebaugh sells it as an advantage but in this context, the difference in pressure is inconsequential. It yields the shooter nothing.
I think you have misidentified me as a naysayer of the.45LC. You will need to educate somebody other than me
. Just because I like to load (or purchase) some stouter loads for my Blackhawk when carrying for bear protection and would likely use similar loads if and when I get a Marlin lever to match my Blackhawk, does not mean I dismissed the cowboy loads as ineffective, within, as you say, appropriate range. But the stouter loads have more range, more power and bigger bullets and there is no real downside for the Blackhawk or appropriate lever gun.
Suppose
44 Mag 250 grain Hornady XTP
45 Colt 250 grain Hornady XTP
Which bullet of the two will be longer, Craig?
Because it is longer, which one will have more friction traveling down the barrel?
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Steve Milbocker
Member
3 Crows, when you made the exception of the Cowboy loads I took it to believe you thought they weren’t adequate. I wasn’t attacking you and if you took it that way I apologize. I should have used a smiley I guess
3 Crows, when you made the exception of the Cowboy loads I took it to believe you thought they weren’t adequate. I wasn’t attacking you and if you took it that way I apologize. I should have used a smiley I guess
Mr. Steve, I was only pulling on your leg, I knew you were not attacking me. Thanks and I totally agree with you.
Roknstevo
Member
Just a note: I have been around since the first half of the previous century. Not trying to be snarky, but I can’t fathom why some are concerned that a weapon firing a bullet as big as their thumb would not be sufficient to down an animal not much larger than a big dog. I have killed deer, hogs, gators, and a wolf with .22 LR. Practice your shooting, and don’t worry a lot about the size of the lead. I carry a .380 auto for protection, and have been looked down upon for my lack of knowledge re: caliber effectiveness. That’s quite alright with me. I can put one of those little underpowered bullets in the eyeball or earhole of anyone who chooses to harm me or mine at intimate range. Merry Christmas and good hunting from an old fart.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Probably the one that's larger in diameter but I'm only guessing. Who cares? Friction is not measurable and I seriously doubt it's going to be a factor worth considering. I have never exaggerated the difference the velocity makes in either direction. The .44 tends to penetrate better and IMHO, it's due to decreased friction. I think that is more significant than any variation in velocity.
v8stang289
Member
You can't answer that without more information. The 44 will undoubtedly be longer, but that doesn't necessarily mean more bearing surface. The 45 calibers larger circumference will give it more surface area per unit of length than the 44, so it would mainly come down to bullet profile and diameter compared to the bore to determine the friction.
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Assuming equal nose/ogive design, the 44 must carry the
extra weight by being longer in the shank. ... ~11% longer.
Doing the comparative volume/tubular surface area game,
a 44 of equal weight to a 45 would have 5% additional
surface/friction contact area.
(But) given cast/lead friction #s for Heavy bullets, no big deal
in the end-result calcs.
extra weight by being longer in the shank. ... ~11% longer.
Doing the comparative volume/tubular surface area game,
a 44 of equal weight to a 45 would have 5% additional
surface/friction contact area.
(But) given cast/lead friction #s for Heavy bullets, no big deal
in the end-result calcs.
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