45 (Long) Colt in an 1866 Yellowboy replica - are 100 meter possible?

[call1911]

Title: 45 (Long) Colt in an 1866 replica 100 meter possible?
Hi there!

I run against the wall here and maybe someone can help or point me in the right direction.

It’s not that I’m a complete newbie at the reloading press.
I do reload for 9 Para, 38 spec, 357 magnum, 45acp (handguns) and 223rem and 6,5x55mm (rifle).

Let me tell you in advance that my wife also shoots „ordonnance“ competitions with several Swedish Mausers (M/96, M/38) prone and seated and knows how to aim and hit with iron sights.

Recently she got herself a Uberti 1866 Yellowboy replica chambered in 45 (Long) Colt.
It’s really a pleasure to shoot and factory ammo works as well as my reloads for 25 to 50 meter.
At 25m standing free it easily holds the 10 and even at 50m shooting from a rest this was also easily done.
It really is a pleasant shooter and puts a big smile in her face evreytime she’s using it.

But there’s a competition twice a year (bison hunt) where you shoot at paper bisons at a distance of 100 meter and whatever I made at the reloading bench it didn’t work out at the range.

The target is about 20x20“ so this is actually huge compared to the usual targets (ISSF 100).

We have a target retrieval system running on ground-mounted cables.
You press a button - target runs out to 100m - you press it again, target comes back.

I tried factory ammo and several reloads and from many, many tries I only managed to hit the target erratically two or three times!

Shooters mustn’t go out to the target, so I can’t go out to the target distance and mount a bigger target.
Problem is - I don’t see where I am hitting at all.
(And shooting low always bear the danger of hitting the cables which means a repair fee of several hundred bucks)

As I live in Europe I can’t get all the powders you might get at your place.
What I have at hand is N310, N320, N340, 3N37 and N32C, HP38, Trail Boss and Bullseye.

(I have several VV rifle powders as well but they won’t do me any good in the 45LC I guess)

I tried only with Vihtavuori and stayed in the recommended range of their data.
They seemed to me as the most promising but proved otherwise.

Lead RNFP 255gn, Vihtavuori N320 5,80 - 6,80gn (min - max)

Lead RNFP 255gn, Vihtavuori, N32C 9,50gn (near max)

Speer HP 185gn, Vihtavuori N340, 11,00 - 11,80gn

Speer HP 185gn, Vihtavuori N320 9,60 (max)

The rifle is great and as it is an 1866 replica I can’t go where I could go with other (stronger) models, I know that and wouldn’t want to thrash it in any way.
It’s real fun to shoot with it and when you tell me forget 100 meter I’ll do just that.
But if there’s a chance to reproducibly hit a 20x20“ I’d like to do that.
Otherwise I buy my wife a lever action in 30-30win

(In some articles I read that going out to 100m in 45LC is a no go for this caliber in regards to „aiming and hitting where you aim“.
Other articles claim differently)

So I am very interested in your opinions, expertise and experience.

Thanks a lot in advance!

 

[forty_caliber]

Sounds like the match you are describing is a "Cody Dixon" style. Is it possible to hit a target with a .45 Colt rifle at 100 yards...yes. Is it possible to do that with match winning repeatability...I never could hit reliably with it at that range. If I put a tang sight on the rifle maybe but the buckhorn just doesn't work for me. I would recommend going the 30-30 route.

.40

 

[treedoc1]

First question: are you shooting a .452 dia bullet out of a .454 dia rifle barrel? Second question: is 100 meters a typo? 100 meters is 110 yards, not an abnormal distance at most ranges from a rest.

Unique powder is my powder of choice. 8-8.5 grains for a 200-250 gr bullet. Match your powder characteristics to Unique.

If you are zeroing at 25 m its reasonable you are 12-15 inches low at 100 m

 

[Charlie98]

Question for you: What is the rifling twist on your barrel?

I had a Marlin 1894 in .45 Colt, I had issues with my standard loading of a 255grn bullet over a nominal charge of Unique powder... like you, I couldn't hit a target at 100yds/Meters. The Marlin has very slow 1:38" rifling twist, it cannot stabilize a heavy bullet at .45 Colt velocity.

 

[edwardware]

I don't think you're experiencing a reloading problem; it sounds like a marksmanship problem. Iron sights are hard.

If your use of the sights is perfect, then your 100m group should be 2x the size your 50m group. . . in reality it's more than 2x as challenging at 2x the distance. I suggest:
- using a ballistic program or chart to understand the trajectory of the bullet. It's a rainbow!
- using a rest or bench to support the rifle, until you get comfortable
- being very careful to achieve a perfect sight picture

 

[Blue68f100]

I play around using my handguns to hit steel (9") at 100 yrds. I've done it with my , Ruger MKIII, 1911 (45acp) and 357 mag revolver. With no backstop it's hard to see where your impacting if you miss. Having a spotter may help. If you know your velocity you can run a ballistic table and get an estimate as to how much correction (windage) is needed. With a handgun if you have any movement induced by the trigger you miss. Every thing is magnified at 100 yrds. Since you have the capability to set the target at any distance, set it shorter and work back. This will give you an idea of whats going on.

 

[Charlie98]

I don't know a whole lot about VV powders, but what I'm seeing with the data you listed is the powders are too fast for that rifle barrel. Those loads would be ideal for handgun loads, and for short-range rifle loads... but I seriously think they don't have the horsepower to get to 100yds/M.

If I'm looking at the right data, your rifle has 1:16" twist rifling... that's a good thing.

I would research load data, with the 255grn bullets, using 3N37 or, if you can get it, N350. Again, I don't know the differences with the VV powders, you will have to do some research on the differences between them. A slower powder will get you some additional velocity in the rifle barrel... that translates to better stability at 100M, etc.

My Speer book gives 10.5-11.5grn VV3N37 with a cast 250grn bullet, as an example. The bullet will have to be properly sized for the bore of your rifle to prevent leading.

 

[GaryL]

You need to know your velocity to determine holdover, and how well the rifle shoots at shorter ranges. I would start at 25m, work on getting a consistent pattern, then do the same at 50m. The rifle should be capable of better than 150mm pattern at 100m with iron sights. I would argue for better than 100mm, but sometimes you get one that just won't shoot a decent pattern. My hunting rifle is like that - a 1 hole wonder with good handloads - consistently puts a bullet in the same spot with a cold barrel at 100 yds, but it's a crap shoot after that - second shot is consistently within 3-4" of the first, but never in the same spot twice. Third round might be a little better or a little worse than the second.

First question: are you shooting a .452 dia bullet out of a .454 dia rifle barrel? Second question: is 100 meters a typo? 100 meters is 110 yards, not an abnormal distance at most ranges from a rest.

Unique powder is my powder of choice. 8-8.5 grains for a 200-250 gr bullet. Match your powder characteristics to Unique.

If you are zeroing at 25 m its reasonable you are 12-15 inches low at 100 m

My load of choice is 8gr Unique behind a 250gr lead bullet.

I've hit an 8x11" target at 100 yds with a 45Colt pistol. Not consistently, and not from a rest, maybe 3 out of 12 rounds. Hold over was between 12-15". Usually try that about once a year, after a fair number of times at the range.

 

[243winxb]

I only managed to hit the target erratically two or three times!

Bullet hitting in dirt in front of target & bouncing up , hitting target?







https://www.federalpremium.com/ballistics-calculator

 

[AJC1]

Definately possible. We shoot steel siloette and the rams are at 200. You want to check out siloette forums for optimal loads as we dont use the same powders. Is there a VV equivalent to 2400. Castboolits or steel chickens would be a good place to check. The drop on pistol calibers over 100 is a lot.

 

[243winxb]

At 25 yards , bullet impact will need to be 3.6" above the aiming point.

At 50 yards, bullet impack will need to be 5.4" above aiming point.

Chart shows zero @ 100 yards.

 

[buck460XVR]

You need to know your velocity to determine holdover, and how well the rifle shoots at shorter ranges. .

^^^This. Good shooting 250 grainers going 1000 fps or so, sighted in @ 25 yards will hit 15 inches low at 100 and will drift maybe 4 inches with a 10 MPH wind. A Bison sized target @ 100 meters should not be that difficult to hit, with practice and accurate gun/ammo. I would go to a 100 meter range and practice at stationary targets where you can go up and see where you are hitting and once you get holdover down, then go back to the bison. It might be that you're better off sighting the rifle at the longest distance and hold low for other distances.

 

[call1911]

Sounds like the match you are describing is a "Cody Dixon" style. Is it possible to hit a target with a .45 Colt rifle at 100 yards...yes. Is it possible to do that with match winning repeatability...I never could hit reliably with it at that range. If I put a tang sight on the rifle maybe but the buckhorn just doesn't work for me. I would recommend going the 30-30 route.

.40

the tang sight would come to play in case I can solve my problem. Don't want wo put one on the rifle if it doesn't work.
For 25m and 50m it really works very well with the buckhorn.

 

[call1911]

First question: are you shooting a .452 dia bullet out of a .454 dia rifle barrel? Second question: is 100 meters a typo? 100 meters is 110 yards, not an abnormal distance at most ranges from a rest.

Unique powder is my powder of choice. 8-8.5 grains for a 200-250 gr bullet. Match your powder characteristics to Unique.

If you are zeroing at 25 m its reasonable you are 12-15 inches low at 100 m

Naa, not a typo
Unique isn't available at my place (Europe/Austria).
But if you say it's possible I'll try to find a match for Unique from what I can get here!

 

[call1911]

Question for you: What is the rifling twist on your barrel?

I had a Marlin 1894 in .45 Colt, I had issues with my standard loading of a 255grn bullet over a nominal charge of Unique powder... like you, I couldn't hit a target at 100yds/Meters. The Marlin has very slow 1:38" rifling twist, it cannot stabilize a heavy bullet at .45 Colt velocity.

twist rate is 1:16 so there should be no problem there.
groove dia is 0,450" and I use 0,452" bullets, so that should be fine, too.

 

[call1911]

I don't think you're experiencing a reloading problem; it sounds like a marksmanship problem. Iron sights are hard.

If your use of the sights is perfect, then your 100m group should be 2x the size your 50m group. . . in reality it's more than 2x as challenging at 2x the distance. I suggest:
- using a ballistic program or chart to understand the trajectory of the bullet. It's a rainbow!
- using a rest or bench to support the rifle, until you get comfortable
- being very careful to achieve a perfect sight picture

Like I wrote in my opening thread. My wife is used to open sights. She scores +95 out of 100 with all our Swedish Mausers (seating) and 90-95 lying.

 

[call1911]

I play around using my handguns to hit steel (9") at 100 yrds. I've done it with my , Ruger MKIII, 1911 (45acp) and 357 mag revolver. With no backstop it's hard to see where your impacting if you miss. Having a spotter may help. If you know your velocity you can run a ballistic table and get an estimate as to how much correction (windage) is needed. With a handgun if you have any movement induced by the trigger you miss. Every thing is magnified at 100 yrds. Since you have the capability to set the target at any distance, set it shorter and work back. This will give you an idea of whats going on.

As it hits bullseye at 25m and almost bullseye at 50m but shoots I don't know where to - brought me here......

 

[call1911]

I don't know a whole lot about VV powders, but what I'm seeing with the data you listed is the powders are too fast for that rifle barrel. Those loads would be ideal for handgun loads, and for short-range rifle loads... but I seriously think they don't have the horsepower to get to 100yds/M.

If I'm looking at the right data, your rifle has 1:16" twist rifling... that's a good thing.

I would research load data, with the 255grn bullets, using 3N37 or, if you can get it, N350. Again, I don't know the differences with the VV powders, you will have to do some research on the differences between them. A slower powder will get you some additional velocity in the rifle barrel... that translates to better stability at 100M, etc.

My Speer book gives 10.5-11.5grn VV3N37 with a cast 250grn bullet, as an example. The bullet will have to be properly sized for the bore of your rifle to prevent leading.

I haven't seen 3N37 in the VV data and missed it at the Speer website.
Thanks to point that out!!
I'll give it a try and let you know how it goes!!!
Your statement about rifle=longer barrel=better with progressive powder makes sense.

 

[Charlie98]

My wife is used to open sights.

I don't think it's lack of marksmanship... I think the bullet is becoming unstable.

 

[call1911]

Bullet hitting in dirt in front of target & bouncing up , hitting target?

View attachment 917008 View attachment 917009





https://www.federalpremium.com/ballistics-calculator

That's always my problem - I don't see s**t and can not tell where the bullet goes.
Never could do "that trick". Don't know why.

 

[Charlie98]

I haven't seen 3N37 in the VV data and missed it at the Speer website.

The VV website is a lilttle odd. The powder they tout as Cowboy powder... they don't even list data for .45 Colt! I would get a loading book or two... not everything is posted online. I have a few of them, I can look if you'd like.

 

[call1911]

Definately possible. We shoot steel siloette and the rams are at 200. You want to check out siloette forums for optimal loads as we dont use the same powders. Is there a VV equivalent to 2400. Castboolits or steel chickens would be a good place to check. The drop on pistol calibers over 100 is a lot.

trusting the www an equivalent powder would be N110. I don't think if I want to go there with an 1866 lever action without official load data.
I'll look into those forums you mentioned!

 

[Charlie98]

That's always my problem - I don't see s**t and can not tell where the bullet goes.
Never could do "that trick". Don't know why.

You need a good spotting scope... and someone watching. I have shot out past 1200M in the past, having someone spot your shots is essential... even at 100M. I regularly shoot my Marlin 1894 in .41MAG out to 600M, but I have to use a slower powder to get the bullet out there, even something in the Unique burn range will run out of gas before it gets there. That's why I suggested VVN350, it looks like it's about in the right range while still keeping your pressures under control. If you can't find 3N37, I think you said you have N340... it has to be better than N320.

 

[call1911]

The VV website is a lilttle odd. The powder they tout as Cowboy powder... they don't even list data for .45 Colt! I would get a loading book or two... not everything is posted online. I have a few of them, I can look if you'd like.

In my VV booklets there are loads listed under "Handgun reloading" and also "Cowboy Action Shooting" for 45LC.
But still very few of them.
45LC and VV powder seems to NOT be the best of combinations

I have some other book (Lyman 48th) but they list almost exclusively US powders and very few others.

As some of you here tell me that this is no miracle and 100m should be "normal" for 45LC I'm rather optimistic to find a solution.
First thing will be a more progressive powder (3N37) and see what happens.

 

[Charlie98]

As some of you here tell me that this is no miracle and 100m should be "normal" for 45LC I'm rather optimistic to find a solution.
First thing will be a more progressive powder (3N37) and see what happens.

100M is perfectly capable with your rifle... I've shot at 500yds with my 4" revolver, it's not as mysterious as it sounds. Your rifle has reasonable rifling, your bullet weight is good (255grn,) we just need to find you a capable powder.