.45 not .44?

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Foto Joe

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My wife tells folks that I am a "Jack of all trades and Master of what ever interests me at the time". Having said that, I need to add to my knowledge base and y'all have been educating me greatly in the last few weeks so here goes with another question for the "experts".

All (sic) of the CB revolvers which I have seen are known as .44 caliber (not counting the .36's etc.), but....I have yet to see one that actually shoots a .44 caliber ball. My Confederate Navy loads a .454, the Dragoon a .451 and both mic out to .450 +/- on the muzzle. Obviously this would make them a .45 caliber gun, wouldn't it??

So...historically, why are these guns known as .44 calibers. Were measurements just that far off in the 19th century. Did someone "own" the moniker .45 caliber and refuse to release it?

Sorry but one of my downfalls is searching for meaninless trivia to amaze my friends and family, or in my wifes case, bore her to death!!

Joe
 
.450 +/-

The Lands mike out to .450 +/- on the Dragoon.

When I purchased the ASM 2nd Model Dragoon a week or so ago from a gun shop, the "Gun Guy" at the shop mic'd the muzzle and informed me that it took a .445 ball. Being new I didn't feel that it was my place to question his logic other than asking why he didn't mic the cylinder. He told me that wasn't how it was done.

I took a box of .445's and when I got home I loaded one into the cylinder without powder to see how it fit. The thing practically dropped into the hole!! I wasn't about to load six of these things with 40gr of powder and hope they stayed in place when the first one went off!!

Consequently, I loaded it with .454's and got a good lead ring and didn't have to worry about them falling out of the cylinder if I pointed the muzzle down. Since then I went out with a friend who had a box of .451's he had no use for and loaded one to see how it went. The .451's shaved a ring as well and were slightly easier to load so I think I'm gonna stay with those.

I will eventually bench the Dragoon to see which ball provides the best accuracy, but for now I'm having way too much fun just loading, firing and cleaning the thing.

My actual question is I guess a historical one. Why is that if the 44's of the 19th Century actually fired a .45 caliber ball, why did they call them .44's?

Joe
 
the "Gun Guy" at the shop mic'd the muzzle and informed me that it took a .445 ball.
Click to expand...

What an irresponsible idiot! Using a .445" ball in a .450-452" chamber is asking for an all-six chain fire!
 
Ignorance is curable!!

I agree!!

I guess the problem when you walk into a gun store looking at BP and the store sells smokeless, you have to keep in mind that you may be dealing with an ignorant person when it comes to BP.

Since my conversion a few weeks ago, my learning curve looks like a vertical wall regarding BP and 19th Century revolvers. I've been a shotgunner and smokeless shooter for 40+ years and after discovering the historical significance of what I now shoot, I am extremely humble.

I am also enjoying corrupting more than a couple of people when it regards BP. My son-in-law who had never even fired a gun (yes he's from CA) got his first experience with a handgun in the form of an 1851 Confederate Navy. He's hooked!!

Joe
 
<<"My actual question is I guess a historical one. Why is that if the 44's of the 19th Century actually fired a .45 caliber ball, why did they call them .44's?">>
I don't have an answer as to why but a lot of calibers are not what they are named. .44 magnum shoots a .429" diameter bullet. .38 special and .357 magnum are the same diameter.
 
Just a guess but 160 years ago I'm sure that truely consistant precision was Questionable. That being the case if they rated a gun .44, it could be safely used with a little bit of variation in ball sizes. .451 .454 .457........Lack of precision both in barrel and ball dimensions that is.
Just a guess though.
 
.44 magnum shoots a .429" diameter bullet. .38 special and .357 magnum are the same diameter.
Click to expand...

Someone on THR came up with the answer: heeled bullets. When the .44 and .38 calibers were developed, the bullets were .44" and .38" in diameter at their widest points. They fit bore sizes that were a tad smaller, and modern, harder bullets are closer to the bore size.
 
44/45

0 fun !
Transitions!
History!
English vs. American standards
First in our C&B revolvers ROA fer instance uses a 457 ball, which is shaved to 454 or thereabout, then as its fired it's swaged into the bore=451 nominally.
Ruger called it 44 I believe 'cause it's historical with BP
Brits measured bores land to land, while the more enlightened of us measured
groove to groove, which is why the US 30 cal is 308 and the Brits 303 is 312.
Incidently the Navy is supposed to be 36 while the army is 44, why the Italians started this may never be known, but they do pretty work,and another snake in the bucket makes little difference, there are books giving overviews of the developement of firearms and cartridges that make for fascinating reading
Enjoy
robert
 
At the time, Measurements I think were Land-to-Land...so, .44 Cal would be ratgher more if measured Groove-to-Groove, and, the Projectile would be .45-something.


It has never been entirely clear whether the Bore is the larger diameter of the Grooves, or, the smaller, of the Lands, as far as which is to me measured for a Caliber attribution.

Bore before Rifling, is clear enough, and, as a final attribution once Rifled would still make sense, sort of...but then deciding once Rifled, that the Bore is now defined by the larger diameter Rifled areas, seems also an inevitable and reasonable conclusion...so...
 
Otyeboten came the closest, he is right, the 19th century cap & ball bore size was determined by the bore before rifling, a 44 bore rifles out to .45 caliber across the grooves, a 36 caliber bore is rifled to .375 across the grooves. The ball fired needs to fill the grooves of the barrel, so is made to that diameter. A .58 (.575) minie' ball will slide down a Civil War era Musket's lands, for ease of loading, and the rifle is called a .58, but the groove diameter is certainly larger than that. By the time Springfield made the Trapdoor Govt., the 45-70 was indeed a 45 caliber bullet (almost .46), but would certainly not slide down a 45-70 bore without a hammer.

So at some point, when cartridges were developed, the caliber designation was changed to indicate the groove diameter. (in most, but not all countries, I think some early European cartridge rifle calibers were still groove diameter).

You can consider the turn of the Century a close approximation of the caliber change, or the development of the metallic cartridge case.

The 44 caliber cartridges, though now reduced to 43 caliber, still retain the 45 caliber chamber, which is the bullet plus brass thickness. The original 44 caliber conversions used the "44" .45 diameter cylinder chambers, which more or less matched the barrel's groove dimensions. The original "44 Colt cartridge used a heel based bullet of 45 caliber. Modern firearms in that caliber are now loaded with .420/430 bullets, and the barrels bored for that, so a modern made 44 Colt revolver will shoot 44 Russian ammo, and a 44 Special or Magnum will chamber a modern made 44 Colt cartridge.

The modern "38" is actually a 36 caliber bullet in a brass case of .38 diameter, which fit in the chambers of a cut off cap & ball cylinder when converted to cartridge, so the 38 Special, etc, are called by the cartidge case diameter, which is roughly, also, the .375 diameter of the grooves of the cap & ball, so the early conversions to 38 Colt needed either a hollow base, or a heeled bullet. The "38" caliber bore was eventually reduced to .357. The cap & ball .31 became a .32 caliber as a cartridge.

The 45 Colt cartridge preserved the cap & ball "44" bore, as Colt never wasted tooling or parts, so the chamber had to be bored to a "plus brass" diameter, and the SAA cylinder enlarged over the 44 Opentop to accomodate 6 rims in the circle.

It can get confusing. The 38-40 (38 WCF) is really off base, as it's really a 40-40, it used the 41 Colt barrel.
 
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Not sure why the cap and ball revolvers were listed as .44 and .36 (and .28 and .31 and .34 and a host of other sizes as well). Perhaps Colt's first .36 (which we now call the Paterson) had a bore that measured .36 inch, but of course it required balls considerably larger for a good seal in the chamber.
The old original bullet moulds threw revolver balls of .375 to .380 inch. Don't read too much into this fact; it was simply more difficult to machine within a certain size back then.
And frankly, it didn't matter if the mould you made made a ball that was .378, while yesterday's moulds measured .380 inch. The revolver's chamber swaged them to size.
Sam Colt must have obviously carried the practice over for the .44 caliber.

Heeled bullets had nothing to do with the stated caliber of cap and ball revolvers. However, some of the first cartridges employed heeled bullets because many of the guns were cap and ball revolvers converted at the factory, or based strongly on cap and ball design, and the bore size was not changed.
The heel on the old, original .38 Short Colt was about .358 diameter. The bullet itself ran from .372 to .378 diameter. Later. when inside-lubricated bullets became more popular, their diameter had to be reduced to fit within the case. And bore size had to be reduced as well, to ensure decent accuracy.
That little heel of about .358 diameter, going back to the .38 Short Colt introduced in 1874, led to the standard .38 bore diameter being .355 to .358.
Yes, that's not a misprint. Many Colt Python owners are surprised to find that their bores run a little tight, at .355 inch. For whatever reason, the older Colt .357s and .38 Specials are commonly had slightly tighter bores.
Smith & Wesson, Ruger and other common makes tend to have bores of the more common .357 inch, give or take a smidgen and fluke.
Even in modern times, variances in bore diameter -- and especially the mouths of chambers -- cause some head-scratching.

THIS JUST IN ...
Oyeboten is right. Forgot about land diameter used as the reference and not groove diameter. This is undoubtedly why Sam Colt named his revolvers .36, .44 and such -- it was the common designator of the day.
We're both right on the .38 Special (and .357 Magnum) tracing their bore diameter back to the diameter of the heel in early cartridges.
It's a confusing mess.
One of these days I'm going to create the .537 Gatofeo Magnum. It will have a .23-caliber lead bullet, with a .221 diameter heel. With a rim .564 in diameter, but a straight body of .24-inch, outside diameter.
Why such a monstrosity? Just to be difficult!
 
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Gatofeo, I had a shooting buddy, many years ago in the early 60's that had a Colt Python with a bore of .352, and sent it back to Colt due to the high pressures he experienced. I would think that barrel must have been close to a smoothbore.

Colt, though they changed the barrel in the SAA after WWII to match the 45ACP, did not change the cylinder's dimensions, and I've seen chamber mouths as large as .458, which will really lead up a barrel firing .452 bullets.
 
size?

The terms "caliber" and "bore" are more or less synonymous when referring to small arms. "Bore" refers to the diameter of the hole through the barrel before it is rifled. "Caliber" refers to the diameter from land to land after the barrel is rifled. Since most rifling processes do not remove any metal from the land area, but rather cut the grooves, the bore and caliber are the same. Groove diameter is a seperate measurement.

(When speaking of muzzle loading artillery, the term "caliber" has an entirely different meaning, it refers to the ratio of bore length to bore diameter, hence a gun of a given caliber may actually be any size so long as it maintains that ratio. So my miniature model of a 24 pounder naval gun is of the same caliber as the full sized original.)

In the case of a cap and ball revolver, the ball is larger than the caliber as it must be a tight fit in the cylinder mouth which in turn is ideally 0.001 inch larger in diameter than the groove diameter, which is larger than the bore or caliber. So a 44 caliber revolver would be expected to take a ball on the order of .451 or .454.

When you get to the cartridge era this all goes down the tubes and any serious attempt to find rhyme or reason in caliber designations can only lead to madness.
 
The .44 (nominal) caliber was a reasonable compromise in a revolver since the standard military pistol caliber when Colt got started was .54 caliber (the Model 1836). But a cylinder capable of taking .54 balls would have been very awkward.

The .44/.45 became the traditional army caliber and the .36/.38 the traditional Navy caliber because the Navy did not have to shoot horses.

Jim
 
I believe the Cap and Ball era Calibers, or, rather, the diameter of their intended Ball projectiles, and the Bores to oblige them, was a convenient continuation of the Gauge System ( which seems limited merely to Shotguns anymore) .

Gauge being how many round lead Balls to a Pound...and, also, then, the measue of the unrifled Bore diameter, made to oblige said Balls to a close fit.


This was the basis of the Ball sizes which were used for Revolving/Repeating Pistols, and, instead of refering to their Projectile size in Gauge, the Revolvers were refered to by Caliber ( if spelled 'Calibre', then ).


Probably, translating familiar or common Ball Calibers to Gauge, or vice versa, was much more familiar then, than now, since Muzzle Loading Rifles and Single Shot Muzzle Loading Pistols were still commonly described or regarded in terms of the Gauge of the Ball...or had been, anyway, up to the advent of the Colt's or other Percussion Revolvers.


I just did a couple 'googles' and found this nice Chart -


http://www.cherrytreefamily.com/gaugetocaliber.htm


So, my Model 1860 Colt 'Army' Revolver, being called .44 Caliber, is also roughly 52 Gauge.
 
Ruger called it 44 I believe 'cause it's historical with BP
Click to expand...

AFAIK the Ruger Old Army .45 is referred to as a .45 and not as a .44 because the bore is .45. :)

http://www.chuckhawks.com/ruger_old_army_syn.htm

A summary of the specifications of Ruger's Old Army .45 revolver are as follows.

Type: muzzleloading, cap and ball, six-shot revolver
Caliber: .45 BP
Proper ball or conical bullet diameter: .457"
Overall length: 13 1/2" (with 7.5" barrel)
Weight: 2 7/8 pounds
Click to expand...
 
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Back in the Day from what I've read the old way of thought was the lands diameter "smaller diameter" was measured to give the caliber of the weapon but I may be wrong.

Well look at many of your muzzleloading firearms, many .44 caliber varients have a lands diameter of .44XX, .45 caliber have a .45XX, .50 caliber have a .50XX & so on, all measured at the lands.
 
caliber again

The Ruger Old Army was designated as a 45 because it uses the same barrel stock as the Blackhawk in 45 Colt. The 45 refers to the nominal groove diameter of 0.451 so the actual caliber is probably closer to 44. (Remember, caliber properly refers to land to land diameter, not groove to groove.) But when you talk about the 45 Colt you are into the cartridge era and caliber designations no longer follow any rhyme or reason any way.

Colt's navy revolver was so called because it had a naval engagement scene from the Mexican war rolled onto the cylinder. After that every body referred to the 36 caliber as the naval caliber. HOWEVER, it had absolutely nothing to do with the Navy! All during the cap and ball period the US Navy was issuing single shot pistols and continued to do so even after they switched to a breech loading cartridge pistol. When ships were made of wood and men were made of iron the naval view of the pistol was as a very short range one shot proposition during a boarding operation, after that it was hand to hand with edged weapons. The short range led to very large calibers with modest powder charges and velocity.
 
back in the 70's when I got my first Ruger Old Army,they called it a ''.44'' on the gun the box,and the literature.Not sure when they made the ''change''.
 
A Wealth of Information!!

Well...it looks like I got what I asked for and then some!!

I've been a gun owner for decades but I can seriously say that going out to the range or the desert with a box of .45's, 9mm etc. just doesn't do much for me. Once you've hammered 50 rounds out of a Buntline what've ya got?? A dirty gun and a lighter wallet!!

I guess what draws me to BP is the "History" of the weapons. I've got several hundred rounds through both guns (1851 Conf. Navy & 2nd Model Dragoon). The half dozen or so of the friends who I've introduced to BP have all commented that they had "no idea" what folks in the 19th century went through when they had to use that gun. You couldn't just hold up your hand and tell the indians "wait up a second while I finish this!"

One of the things which endears me to BP is the fact that I can walk into a gunshop and purchase ANYTHING that I need (if they in fact have it) and not have to produce my National Identity Card!! Obviously the government has a short memory (duh!!) when it comes to what the founders and pioneers of this country used to gain not only independence but push west and settle the frontier!!

I shall now have my wife bring me the step-ladder so that I may climb back down off my soap-box.

Thanks,
Joe
 
I remember on here 2 or 3 years ago this conversation came up and I told them (ya'll?) that my Walkers both fire a .457 and they (ya'll?) could call it whatever the hell they (ya'll) pleased but it was a .45 and so are my Pietta '58's and so are my Cattleman's Carbines since both the '58's and the carbines fire .451 and I don't give a rat's rectum what Mr. Walker the Ranger or Mr. Colt His Highness or Mr. Remington The Great One had to say about it back during those dim and cloudy and sometimes dark and bloody and almost unthinkable far recesses of ancient history....
 
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