45 Super is taking off again in interest by handgun shooter,s

[Richard Jay King]

I have a smith 4506 that I have been researching the steps to run 45 super. I have been leaning towards sprinco for the recoil spring.

http://www.sprinco.com/springs.html

I have been running some hot 45 acp reloads through it without any problems with the stock spring.

I have been shooting .45 Super in my 4506 for years...Everybody thinks they have to have a super heavy recoil spring but if you do the physics calculations you see that increasing the force of the recoil spring has a minimal impact on the final slide velocity at the end stop. A super heavy recoil spring just makes the slide close faster and thus stripping over the next cartridge in the mag. I run only an 18# spring in my 4506 with stock mag springs and it functions fine with either super loads or standard acp loads. The only thing I think you really need to do is put in a Wolff extra power firing pin rebound spring or else the fired super cases will have drag marks. Just so you know that I am not just "thinking" I am shooting super loads my 200 grain loads chrono 1230 fps and my 255 loads do 1020 fps. The 4506 is a natural for super conversion. Start shooting!

 

[DukeConnor]

I have been shooting .45 Super in my 4506 for years...Everybody thinks they have to have a super heavy recoil spring but if you do the physics calculations you see that increasing the force of the recoil spring has a minimal impact on the final slide velocity at the end stop. A super heavy recoil spring just makes the slide close faster and thus stripping over the next cartridge in the mag. I run only an 18# spring in my 4506 with stock mag springs and it functions fine with either super loads or standard acp loads. The only thing I think you really need to do is put in a Wolff extra power firing pin rebound spring or else the fired super cases will have drag marks. Just so you know that I am not just "thinking" I am shooting super loads my 200 grain loads chrono 1230 fps and my 255 loads do 1020 fps. The 4506 is a natural for super conversion. Start shooting!

Thanks for the info. I have read about the firing pin spring but never knew what the purpose was. I have some 45 super starline prass in route. once again thanks for the info.

 

[sparrow75]

Richard, Thank,s for the info. on the firing pin spring. I need to get one and put it in my Glock 21sf. Presently I have the spring that came with it.
Another question I have ,I,m going to purchase from Wolf eventually the Alpha Wolf Compensator. They advised to go to a lighter slide spring or lighter load,s ammo. may not work well in gun. Presently I have installed the 24lb spring. What would be your suggestion for what lighter lb. spring to go to ? I don,t know why this typing went bold on me.

 

[SDGlock23]

I really like the .45 Super, I've worked up a lot of loads for it (most found on that Glock forum link posted earlier). I started out with a G21 SF with KKM stock length barrel then moved to a Glock 21 Gen4 using a KKM 4 port barrel. I did run a few milder .45 Supers through some 1911's but found they didn't handle the round as well as the G21 Gen4 did. Some guys even use .45 ACP brass to work up some upper end .45 Super but I stuck with Starline .45 Super brass. Now one thing I did do was I had the throat on the KKM barrel (the leade) lengthened slightly to better accommodate the more blunt .452" revolver style bullets because otherwise my OAL had to be a bit on the short side. The reason for wanting to utilize .452" bullets is that they're designed to be stronger and will hold up better than typical .451" .45 ACP designed bullets.

From everything I've seen, I have no doubt Starline .45 Super brass is as strong as 460 Rowland brass, so when both are loaded to the same OAL, there is no difference in power potential between the .45 Super and 460 Rowland. Do keep in mind that you will need to compensate/port the gun for full power .45 Super, otherwise slide speed is too high. The stock G21 Gen4 recoil spring worked great for all loads. Someone mentioned the 450 SMC, my understanding is that it's merely a small primer version of the .45 Super.

I ran anywhere from a 185gr JHP @ 1600 fps, 250gr XTP to 1350+, to a 300gr LFNGC hard cast to 1150 fps from the ~5" KKM G21 compensated barrel. The recoil got to be pretty stout, basically I'm saying I wouldn't want to shoot a steady diet of these through the gun. I settled for more sedate loadings, like a 250gr Gold Dot loaded to around 1050-1100 fps, stuff like that. It's a very good cartridge and does deserve more attention, but also to get the most out of it you need to handload.

 

[fxvr5]

Someone mentioned the 450 SMC, my understanding is that it's merely a small primer version of the .45 Super.

The 450 SMC is a variant of the 45 Super, and was created in 2000 by Fernando Coelho to overcome one problem with the 45 Super. The 45 Super had occasional primer flow from the large pistol primers, even though the loads were well within the normal operating pressures of large pistol primers (the 10mm Auto, for example, uses a large pistol primer and it has a maximum pressure limit of 37,500 psi).

In 1911s, this was in large part due to the large diameter of the firing pin and firing pin hole. Primer flow can cause misfires if the primer material shears off and accumulates in the firing pin hole.

The case was redesigned at Starline with a small primer pocket. With the use of small rifle primers which have thicker cups and handle higher pressure than pistol primers, primer flow stopped. The new case was branded 450 SMC.

The 450 SMC has a higher pressure limit of 32,000 psi, which adds another 50 fps or so more speed over 45 Super loads.

 

[Richard Jay King]

If I knew the weight of the Glock slide and barrel I could calculate the spring rate for you but I don't have that data.If you go to a mailing place and have them weighed then I could start from there. The combined barrel and slide weight is the main contributer to final slide velocity at the rear stop.. None of this is magic...The super puts over twice the stress on any pistol it is fired in..when will this cause cracks in the frame?? It depends on the slide and barrel mass and the make of the gun...I shoot Super in a Smith and Wesson 4506 and I hunt with this gun which means I shoot about 20 rounds per year. i suspect that the gun will out live me...

 

[sparrow75]

The 450 SMC is a variant of the 45 Super, and was created in 2000 by Fernando Coelho to overcome one problem with the 45 Super. The 45 Super had occasional primer flow from the large pistol primers, even though the loads were well within the normal operating pressures of large pistol primers (the 10mm Auto, for example, uses a large pistol primer and it has a maximum pressure limit of 37,500 psi).

In 1911s, this was in large part due to the large diameter of the firing pin and firing pin hole. Primer flow can cause misfires if the primer material shears off and accumulates in the firing pin hole.

The case was redesigned at Starline with a small primer pocket. With the use of small rifle primers which have thicker cups and handle higher pressure than pistol primers, primer flow stopped. The new case was branded 450 SMC.

The 450 SMC has a higher pressure limit of 32,000 psi, which adds another 50 fps or so more speed over 45 Super loads.

Real good read and nice to learn about. All in all this trip has been very interesting to get information that I did not have knowledge of. I will admit it on this subject, I,m in the crawling stage and part way up on my feet.Long long way to go yet.

 

[Richard Jay King]

Richard, Thank,s for the info. on the firing pin spring. I need to get one and put it in my Glock 21sf. Presently I have the spring that came with it.
Another question I have ,I,m going to purchase from Wolf eventually the Alpha Wolf Compensator. They advised to go to a lighter slide spring or lighter load,s ammo. may not work well in gun. Presently I have installed the 24lb spring. What would be your suggestion for what lighter lb. spring to go to ? I don,t know why this typing went bold on me.

The addition of a comp will both add mass and reduce the recoil impulse so you may get by fine with the stock spring. I would start with that and if really light loads fail to eject you might want to go lighter spring but you will know that when you shoot it. Main thing is don't over spring thinking this will take the load off the gun..it will not! In my physics model going from an 18# spring to a 28# recoil spring only decreases slide velocity by 0.3 feet per second..

 

[sparrow75]

Real good read and nice to learn about. All in all this trip has been very interesting to get information that I did not have knowledge of. I will admit it on this subject, I,m in the crawling stage and part way up on my feet.Long long way to go yet.

I bought a couple 100 small pistol primer,s to put in the Starline 45 Super Virgin Brass I have coming from Brownell. Would these still be ok to use or what are your thought,s on this.

 

[sparrow75]

If I knew the weight of the Glock slide and barrel I could calculate the spring rate for you but I don't have that data.If you go to a mailing place and have them weighed then I could start from there. The combined barrel and slide weight is the main contributer to final slide velocity at the rear stop.. None of this is magic...The super puts over twice the stress on any pistol it is fired in..when will this cause cracks in the frame?? It depends on the slide and barrel mass and the make of the gun...I shoot Super in a Smith and Wesson 4506 and I hunt with this gun which means I shoot about 20 rounds per year. i suspect that the gun will out live me...

Thanks, After I get the compensator on, I will find out at the local gun range how she function,s . I also plan only to shoot the 230 grain ammo. that I have reloaded in the pressure safe range for the 45 ACP. I do have 20 round,s of 45 Super Underwood I purchased. Their 185 Grain,s. Rated to fly 1,300. I also need to buy the heavier firing pin spring. Eventually it should all come together!!

 

[fxvr5]

I bought a couple 100 small pistol primer,s to put in the Starline 45 Super Virgin Brass I have coming from Brownell. Would these still be ok to use or what are your thought,s on this.

No. The Starline 45 Super brass uses large pistol primers. Only the 450 SMC brass use small rifle primers.

See their website: https://www.starlinebrass.com/brass-cases/45-Super-Brass/

 

[fxvr5]

DoubleTap sells 450 SMC ammo, and the last time I asked them, about a year ago, they would sell 450 SMC brass. I don't know if they still would.

 

[sparrow75]

No. The Starline 45 Super brass uses large pistol primers. Only the 450 SMC brass use small rifle primers.

See their website: https://www.starlinebrass.com/brass-cases/45-Super-Brass/

That,s just great to know because I,ve got 3 boxes of them .yeehaawwww

 

[TN Outlaw]

I'd like to find a decent price on a Glock 21 slide assembly to go on my Gen 3 Glock 20sf. I'd like to tinker with a hotrod 45 (probably a 460 Rowland) but the places I looked seemed to cost nearly as much as I could get an entire Glock 21 police trade in gun.

That might be the best way to go anyway? I might would play around with the Super too if I could get into one pretty fair priced. It's been over a year since I've looked into it.

 

[SDGlock23]

The 450 SMC is a variant of the 45 Super, and was created in 2000 by Fernando Coelho to overcome one problem with the 45 Super. The 45 Super had occasional primer flow from the large pistol primers, even though the loads were well within the normal operating pressures of large pistol primers (the 10mm Auto, for example, uses a large pistol primer and it has a maximum pressure limit of 37,500 psi).

In 1911s, this was in large part due to the large diameter of the firing pin and firing pin hole. Primer flow can cause misfires if the primer material shears off and accumulates in the firing pin hole.

The case was redesigned at Starline with a small primer pocket. With the use of small rifle primers which have thicker cups and handle higher pressure than pistol primers, primer flow stopped. The new case was branded 450 SMC.

The 450 SMC has a higher pressure limit of 32,000 psi, which adds another 50 fps or so more speed over 45 Super loads.

At that time maybe there was an issue with primer flow, but with Starline brass and mostly CCI LP primers, I never saw any of that with my .45 Super loads. I'm guessing that shooting loads that develop over 1,000 ft-lbs of energy might bring forward any issues that might abound but nope, never an issue with .45 Super, even admittedly HOT .45 Super. I don't have any reason to doubt .450 SMC brass is strong enough, but it's not easy to get, however .45 Super brass is and can withstand the same pressures as 460 Rowland, it's very robust.

 

[fxvr5]

At that time maybe there was an issue with primer flow, but with Starline brass and mostly CCI LP primers, I never saw any of that with my .45 Super loads. I'm guessing that shooting loads that develop over 1,000 ft-lbs of energy might bring forward any issues that might abound but nope, never an issue with .45 Super, even admittedly HOT .45 Super. I don't have any reason to doubt .450 SMC brass is strong enough, but it's not easy to get, however .45 Super brass is and can withstand the same pressures as 460 Rowland, it's very robust.

Right. My post was merely intended to clarify why the 450 SMC had the small primer size.

 

[sparrow75]

Found this recommended website that had load data : http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=41

 

[BlueHeelerFl]

I carry a S&W 25-2 sometimes when I go hunting and I keep it packed with those Buffalo Bore loads. It’s a fine gun and when coupled with the 45 Super I really like it for a hunting woods BUG.

I have a 625 in 45 ACP, is that capable.of shooting 45 Super? I have heard different stories in what it can handle

 

[sparrow75]

I had a S@W Shield 45acp that could have been converted to the 45 Super but I traded it in for a Glock 21SF 45ACP. I,m slowly getting my conversion part,s done for the 21 . I have a new Wolf barrel, a 24lb recoil spring on a tungton guide rod, ordered a extra power spring for the striker and have on order a 20lb recoil spring if I need to run lighter when I get a compensator put on. I just got my 100 pc. Starline 45 Super Brass today. I have started priming a few after I did a Brass full reform run on all 100 pcs. The 625 in 45 ACP I,m not familiar with and I guess Blue you,ll need to do some research on it to find out if you can shoot the 45 Super and what you,ll need to do to add a conversion kit to it.Got plenty of time anyway, the Gun range is full of snow and cold weather.

 

[fxvr5]

The 625 in 45 ACP I,m not familiar with and I guess Blue you,ll need to do some research on it to find out if you can shoot the 45 Super and what you,ll need to do to add a conversion kit to it.

The S&W 625 is a revolver. https://www.smith-wesson.com/firearms/model-625-jm

 

[DeepSouth]

I have a 625 in 45 ACP, is that capable.of shooting 45 Super? I have heard different stories in what it can handle

The maximum pressure ratings for the cartridges are:
.45 ACP 22,000 CUP
.45 ACP+P 23,000 CUP
.45 Super 28,000 CUP


the .45 Super has a 27% increase in max. pressure over the .45 ACP and 22% over +P loads, which is below that of proof loads which run 30% or more over maximum.

Those are the facts, they put it very close to the edge of the proof. I’m sure S&W would tell you it’s a no go, they’ll tell you that about all their 45 acp revolvers I’m sure, including my 25-2.

I shoot very little .45 Super in my 25-2. As in I bought a 100 rounds 5 maybe 6 years ago and have probably only shot 15-20 rounds of it.

In short, I personally will not tell you it’s safe to shoot .45 super in a 625, (or any other S&W revolvers) but in full honesty if it were mine I wouldn’t be bothered a bit to shoot a small amount of it on the rare occasion, but a steady diet of it would be a definite no go.

 

[JTQ]

In short, I personally will not tell you it’s safe to shoot .45 super in a 625, (or any other S&W revolvers) ...

I wouldn't either, but considering the S&W 625 (and your 25-2) is an N-Frame, that is also used to shoot .357, .41, and .44 Magnum rounds through...

 

[DeepSouth]

I wouldn't either, but considering the S&W 625 (and your 25-2) is an N-Frame, that is also used to shoot .357, .41, and .44 Magnum rounds through...

Yep, and 44mag is 44,000 cpu if memory servers. Compared to the 28,000 of 45 super.

A limited diet of the super doesn’t bother me in the least, but Ive been wrong before so.....

 

[Llama Bob]

It seems to me that all the problems .45 Super is conceivably suited to solving have already been solved by 10mm and various revolver cartridges.

I don't have and problem with it, but I don't see it taking off.

 

[reddog81]

Richard, Thank,s for the info. on the firing pin spring. I need to get one and put it in my Glock 21sf. Presently I have the spring that came with it.

FWIW the firing pin spring in a S&W 4506 and a Glock do the exact opposite thing. The 4506 spring pushes the firing pin spring back into the slide after being smacked by the hammer. The Glock spring is what pushes the striker/firing pin forward.