.45 Super load advice for trail gun

[dirtengineer]

I have ordered a 5.15" barrel, a 24 pound spring, a buffer, and .45 super brass. All for my Glock 21. The goal is a trail gun with ammunition for bear. This will be my wife's carry gun in the woods. She does fine with my .44 magnum with full power 300 grain loads, so I don't think recoil will be a problem. She usually carries her Glock 23, but here in the woods of Alaska I think a .45 super would be better until I can save up for another .44 or something even bigger.

I think a hard cast bullet around 250 grains would be best. Something along the lines of this: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/2046894387/hunters-supply-hard-cast-bullets-45-caliber-452-diameter-250-grain-lead-flat-nose

Question 1:What do you think of my bullet choice? Any suggestions?

Question 2: Load data is pretty scarce, so I may have to work something up reasonable. Use .45 ACP to start and extrapolate from available .45 super data. Do you think 1050 FPS is reasonable from this length of barrel and bullet weight?

Question 3: For powder selection I was thinking either Power Pistol or Accurate #9. Any suggestions or comments?

Question 4: Anyone have a good load for a similar setup that they have already worked up that they can share?

 

[Seven For Sure]

Sounds very reasonable in terms of weight and velocity from what I've heard and read about the Super. Only other thing to think about is a 20 upper for your 21 frame because of more readily available loaded ammo and reloading data. There is a room at GT dedicated to reloading 10mm.

 

[hariph creek]

I looked at the .45 Super but, went with the 10mm instead. Really, due to what 'Seven For Sure' cited. I really like 10mm but, still wonder about .45 Super. It might be easier/cheaper to convert to .45 Super. Than it is to find a good 10mm. Of course I speak in the context of 1911's. Plus, with .45 Super it's pretty easy to run .45acp.

When resesrching both rounds I found Accurate #9 to be my best choice. It flows/measures great and Accurate has great customer support. There are other good options I'm sure, this worked for me.

Bear Tooth Bullets most likely has some good projectiles for your application. They have a link to a site called ''Loadswap'', it's got alot of data.

Sorry not to be helpful. I look forward to anyone else's feedback on this subject. It's interesting.

 

[dirtengineer]

I considered the 10mm. If I could turn back time I would probably have purchased a G20. I think the 10mm is a very versatile round.

I wanted a low cost option, and a barrel swap is cheaper than an upper. The research I have done suggests that the conversion barrels are not completely reliable.

I want to use hard cast bullets. So an upper would have meant an upper plus a new barrel, plus new magazines.

I really like the TFO sights on my G21. New upper would have meant either moving the sights over or buying new sights.

I have already purchased brass, springs, buffer, and barrel, so bullets and load data are all that I need at this point. I will check out bear tooth bullets, thanks.

 

[Cycletroll]

This will enflame all the 10mm zealots but:

A G21 with a well supported chamber (mine is a stock length Lone Wolf with a 24# spring) will stomp all over 10mm in terms of bear/elk/zombie etc. loads

Warning: The following is NOT published data and may maim, injure, kill, or otherwise ruin your day! It works in my gun; follow at your own risk!


Try Hunters Supply(http://www.midwayusa.com/product/20...caliber-452-diameter-275-grain-lead-flat-nose) 275gr WFN @ 1.245" COL with a start of 8.2 gr 800x for a velocity of about 1036fps. This is a 10% (at least) reduction of loads I have tested in standard Winchester brass with no undue case head expansion or other ominous pressure signs. Works fine in Starline .45 Super brass too
Will penetrate a bull elk stem to stern and most bears too

(bear in mind that COL depends very much on individual barrel throat leade and may be different in your gun; just make sure the bullet is not jammed into the rifling causing undue pressure increase)

 

[dirtengineer]

Cycletroll - I was thinking that the 275 grain would be too long. Since I am going to use a lone wolf 5.15" barrel then I should be able to duplicate your load (with the large bullet). I just got my starline brass in the mail today!

My wife is quite amused with the zombie claims. She really wants you to cite your source with respect to relative effectiveness of zombies versus bears.

 

[Cycletroll]

The shape of the HS bullet allows a much longer COL in the LW barrel than many other bullets (the Hornady 230gr XTP for example). I have tried a lot of different heavy weights and the HS is the king. Great weight with a really wide meplat (flat area is .36). I was going to have the throat opened in my barrel until I found this bullet.

I run it a bit hotter than the starting load I suggested and it is accurate too.

As to Zombies, the mighty 10mm splatters Zombie brains with aplomb but the .45 Super 275gr sails through dozens lined in a row even if they are hiding behind the soccer mom van!

 

[hariph creek]

dirtengineer, check out ''Ace Custom 45's.'' They seem to be the propriertery home of the .45 Super. Might find some load info through them?
I think you're right to request load data sources. Especially when improper parts or components are recommended. We all know anecdotal evidense of somebody doing something wreckless and getting away with it. That doesn't mean it's an outcome we should rely upon.
Any time ''Zombies'' enters the picture I get leary.
I've got to say though. For the kind of big bears you have in Alaska. .44mag would be the minimum I'd even consider. Down here I'd consider .357mag/.45 Super/10mm but, for up there, I don't think they develop enough energy. Better than nothing but, nothing's better than a rifle.

Cycletroll, I shoot 10mm, alas I am not enflamed. It meets a specified ballistic need in a platform I am fond of. I'm not a zealot.
Your claims of ''stem to stern'' on elk and/or bear seem questionable. The load you're suggesting seems to be in the .44 special range (it's a fine cartridge as well). Add to that the .45's sectional density, which would require more velocity... I don't know? ''Stem to stern"...?

 

[dirtengineer]

HC - I just took another look at the Ace Custom website and they cite several magazine articles from 1997 for load data. My google-jitsu has not been able to locate the data from these sources. I might have to see if I can get the back issues of the articles. The only data I have been able to find so far has been home-brewed and realguns.com.

This is just a stop gap until my pocketbook can afford another .44 Magnum for my wife (or I get something bigger for me and pass the .44 to her). This is meant to be an improvement over her Glock 23 in the interim. I will still carry my .44 when we are in the woods and she will carry my .44 when we are not together. Although there are several examples where service caliber sized pistols have dispatched problem bears. Something is better than nothing, and bigger is generally better. Big rifle or shotgun is definitely better than a pistol. In fact, when we are camping in the trailer or hiking in a high risk area, my Mossberg 590 is with us.

I fully appreciate the bears up here. I have killed a black bear and been the back up shot for a brown bear on Kodiak. The animals were harvested with .300 win mag and .375 H&H, respectively.

I was hoping for more than one hit for offered load data, but maybe I overestimated the popularity of this particular cartridge.

 

[hariph creek]

That's a large part of why I went with 10mm instead. .45 Super is still pretty interesting though.
On Ace's site was it Hodgdon that was mentioned as doing load development?
Stop gap or not, it's still a cool proposition. It really seems to do what alot of people think or wish .45acp could do.

 

[Cycletroll]

hariph, lighten up; the reference to zombies is a joke!

I jest about the 10mm zealots tongue in cheek because there are many, many, many "what gun for bear defense" threads on nearly every gun forum known to man.

Let me be clear: the 10mm is a good cartridge. It is not however the only game in town. The .45 super is a very viable option. As the 10mm gang knows most load data is lawyerly watered down for liability sake.

I have tested my load (275gr .45@1086) in wet pack against a load that I have seen go stem to stern on a 6x6 bull elk (300gr .44@1100fps) and it has almost identical penetration.
People on forums are wise to be cautious with unsubstantiated load data. I would remind the audience that 10mm loads citing 200gr@ 1350 are taken as reliable and safe all day (which they may not be depending on the gun). .45 super and even beyond are mostly loaded at pressures far lower than 10mm. Due to the larger bearing surface not as much pressure is needed.

The stock G21 barrel is extremely hogged out and even with .45 super brass (BTW, +p remington brass has a thicker web), will bulge into the feed ramp with loads not much hotter than +p.
That being said, with a well supported chamber, the G21 will fire well beyond .45 Super published loads out of ordinary Winchester brass with no undue case head expansion.

It is my opinion that a heavy .45 LWFN can be loaded to do more work (bigger hole and plenty of penetration) than the 10mm at significantly lower pressures.

Not starting a caliber war just using the well discussed benchmark of the 10mm as a reference point for the less well known .45 Super. The G20/G21 is a great platform and for those who handload I believe the G21 is a better platform.

Flame away

 

[Cycletroll]

For those of you interested in the terminal ballistics of .45 cal loads look into the success of the .45 Colt. The super and Rowland can be loaded to easily surpass .45 Colt although not quite as flexible as the Colt in a strong revolver like the Ruger Redhawk.
Beartooth Bullets has some really good data on the effectiveness of various hard cast loads. In reality most any hard cast FN bullet @1100 fps will provide enormous penetration and the wider the flat nose, the bigger the hole

Buffalo Bore offers a +p .45 ACP 255gr WFN at 925fps and the same load in .45 Super @1075fps for those of you that don't handload.

 

[hariph creek]

Sorry Cycletroll, I didn't mean to come off so harsh. You make good points.
I can't say 10mm is better than .45super. It does have better support, load data wise. Which is funny to say, when you consider how little there is for 10mm. Compared to more common calibers.

Edit: Deteted zombie rant, totaly hi-jacked the thread. Sorry.

 

[dirtengineer]

Cycletroll - are you referring to the calculators in the "Ballistician's Corner" or something else over at beartooth bullets?

 

[dirtengineer]

Don't worry about the Zombie thing. My wife really finds all of the recent references to zombies amusing.

I am finding that the resources are few and far between for this caliber, so I am happy to get the feedback.