.45 Super vs. 10mm?

[Igloodude]

All,
For a while I've been figuring my next pistol was going to be a 1911 widebody in .40S&W, knowing that #1 I could use it for IPSC classes where my current singlestack .45s don't let me go, and #2 I could get a 10mm top-end for it and use it for heavy plinking and maybe pinshooting (keeping in mind that all I've shot up till now has been Bullseye and some IDPA-ish stages).

I've just stumbled across the .45 Super. Does anyone here have any experience with that? I think I'm willing to drop two rounds of capacity in return for not having to get or swap out dies in my Dillon, being able to shoot the Super with my usual .45ACP loads, and having a revolver (S&W model 625) that'll take .45Super as-is. Except, I haven't found much data about the .45 Super, and http://www.acecustom45.com/ (the primary .45Super source) is still under construction. Does anyone know of a good FAQ or have experience with .45Super to relate, particularly as it compares to 10mm?

 

[coltrane679]

It's not under construction, it has been taken down. Here is what it used to be like:

http://web.archive.org/web/20040711084016/www.acecustom45.com/

.45 Super, aka .450 SMC, is great stuff, but is essentially a wildcat round. Triton was the last commercial manufacturer of it that I know of (I still have a few boxes, I think, from when I had a 625). If you are going to roll your own, that's no big deal--I think Starline still makes the brass. And I'm sure there are still some "botique" makers out there.

Ace's used to offer a fancy (expensive) conversion package, but many people said it was unnecessary--you could safely convert a 1911 a lot cheaper:

http://www.realguns.com/archives/020.htm

Check the Sprinco website as well--it seems to be down at the moment for me. (www.sprinco.com)

I've seen claims that some guns, like the USP, don't need ANY conversion to handle the load. I was going to convert my Ruger P95 with a Sprinco, but I sold it first.

I have my doubts that a 1911 rigged for .45 Super is going to function as reliably with .45 ACP, but I have no personal experience in the area.

Hope this might help.

 

[Igloodude]

Coltrane, that's a huge help, thanks!!

 

[MP-5]

I thought ballistically the 10mm was superior.

 

[jc2]

Here's a good commercial source for .45 Super (and if you browse their website some good information on the .45 Super).

http://www.texas-ammo.com/order.htm

The prices aren't too bad (about $6 more per 50 than the 10mm). They're a good company and led the way in marketing "full-power" 10mm ammo--Double Tap, though better promoted, merely followed Texas Ammo's lead.

The 10mm and .45 Super pretty much run neck in terms of power up through 200-grains, but the Super can handle heavier 230-grain bullets that pretty much leave the 10mm in the dust.

 

[coltrane679]

One other thing--another option is .460 Rowland. Starline makes brass for it as well, and I think Georgia Arms loads some up. See this:

http://www.clarkcustomguns.com/rowland.htm

You'd have to swap out some stuff to go back and shoot .45 ACP reliably. You can have your 625 converted to shoot it, too (I think that only runs $99)--there you can continue to shoot .45 ACP (or .45 Super for that matter).

I have no personal experience with .460 Rowland, so good luck to you wahtever you choose!

 

[Car Knocker]

Here's a 3-part series about the .45 Super:
http://www.realguns.com/archives/020.htm
http://www.realguns.com/archives/021.htm
http://www.realguns.com/archives/022.htm

 

[Anthony]

Has anyone shot Double Tap and/or Texas Ammunition Company's 10mm loads extensively?

Does either 155-grain version from either company have a low or comfortable level of muzzle flash?

Thanks for the input.

 

[Anthony]

Has anyone shot Double Tap and/or Texas Ammunition Company's 10mm loads extensively?

Does either 155-grain version from either company have a low or comfortable level of muzzle flash?

Thanks for the input.

 

[coltrane679]

I've shot most of the Double Tap loads--muzzle flash has not been a problem for me. That may be a subjective standard, however.

I think they have a sampler pack of their various loads you can try at a discounted price.

Speaking of muzzle flash, I shot some WinClean .357 magnum today--it has the muzzle flash of the gods! Everybody at the range thinks it is a .44 mag. Great fun for range ammo, lousy in the real world.

 

[res1b3uq]

Texas Ammunition

had a booth at our last gun show. I bought some to try in my .45. My impression is that they are serious about making quality ammunition, and have been successful at it. They are primarily interested in defensive ammo, and not target. It runs really well in my .45. It is also potent. As another poster stated, "hot, hot, hot".

 

[SteelEye]

Excellent discussion on 45 Super here...
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=78625

BTW, I'd go with the 10mm over the 45 Super simply because of suitability. You can push the 45 ACP way, way beyond its rated capabilities but the price you pay is a beat up gun and possibly a KB if you push your cases too hard.

I got 1500 fps out of 45 AR Starline brass with 185 gr bullets in my 625 but I began to realize I was really looking for a 44 mag which I ended up getting. My 625 goes back to shooting "normal" 45 ACP loads.

 

[agtman]

Double Tap & Texas Ammo

I've shot an extensive amount of 10mm loads from both Double Tap and Texas Ammo.

Both make excellent 10mm ammo, and Karl Vancil at TA, sensing a market demand for it, was out of the box early with four factory 10mm loads made to "original spec" levels (i.e., full power, or even a bit beyond the early Norma stuff).

Indeed, TA can rightly be credited with helping to generate renewed interest in "high performance" 10mm ammo topped with premium HP bullets, like Sierras and XTPs from Hornady.

At the time I posted an early review of TA's 200gn 10mm loads on GT's 10Ring, MCNETT was already finalizing his initial 10mm loads and, shortly thereafter, began marketing Double Tap Ammo.

Currently, DT has a more extensive 10mm line-up to choose from, including bullet-styles and bullet-weights. Some are designed for purely defensive use (with Gold Dot & Golden Saber HPs), while others are clearly for hunting or protection against predators.

TA has now revamped its 10mm line-up a bit, going with a 155gn XTP-HP in place of a 135 Nosler HP, and a 180gn XTP in place of a 165gn GDHP.

Again, both companies make great 10mm ammo. TA's prices run somewhat higher than DT's.

In my experience, DT's 10mm ammo generally exhibits a more muted muzzle flash than others I've shot.

 

[jc2]

Yes, Texas Ammo certainly started the ball rolling when it comes to the 10mm and have been at it a while. Double Tap has definitely been able to move in and take advantage of what they started.

They switched to the XTP based on their experience with hot loaded 10mm ammunition (and they certainly have more than their imitators)--they're not bashful about telling you straight out the XTP just flat works better with the 10mm that the Gold Dot. It's nice to see a company willing to go to the trouble and expense to make a change when in it's in the customer's best interest.

 

[Rockstar]

I don't see .45 Super as a good defensive round for a couple of obvious reasons.

If you own a G21, you have the option of .45ACP; .40 Super; .400 Cor-Bon; .45 Super; and 10mm, with only a barrel (and mag, for 10mm) change. I'd also recommend tayloring recoil spring weight to load/round being used.

 

[saands]

I went through this process a couple of years ago. Someone mentioned a 460 Rowland, so let me share my experiences:

Positives:
+ 200gr bullets averaging 1453 fps and 937 ft-lbs at the muzzle.
(compare to DT's 200gr 10mm at 1250fps and close to 700 ft-lbs)
+ Recoil about like a 40S&W (feels NOTHING at all like the magnum it is
+ As accurate as my 1911 in .45acp
+ VERY quick conversion if you buy another 45acp slide for your 1911

Negatives:
- Takes a little effort and time to change from 45acp to 460 and back if you don't get an extra slide. (maybe 5 minutes or so? ... I never really timed it)
- A little heavier (due to muzzle brake)
- Doesn't fit in most 1911 holsters as the muzzle brake adds about an inch to the length.
- Most .451" bullets don't work because they start to taper right about where the 45acp brass ends. If you seat the bullets far enough out so that you can crimp them in the 460 brass, they won't fit in a standard 1911 magazine Precision Bullets does make a 200gr Round Nose Flat Point, however, that works well and is what I use.

Overall opinion: There's no free lunch, but I LOVE MINE! ... it isn't a carry piece, though, unless you are backpacking.

Saands

 

[Ohen Cepel]

I'll throw in my vote for the 10mm. With the right ammo I think it's a great option.

Yes, great things can be done with the .45 but I worry about the long term survival of the harder to get rounds/brass.