45 Super ???

[ExAgoradzo]

So, I was just asking about the 10mm heavy loads. Thank you to all of you for your input!!!

In my research with your help, I ran into the 45Super.

It looks like with changing the recoil spring I can use my Kimber Custom Target II as a 45 Super gun.

Not so goods:
1. 8+1 instead of 15+1 in a 10mm of whatever flavor
2. Looks like it is a little less powerful overall of a cartridge.
3. I don’t get a new gun
4. I have no place for a flashlight.

Goods
1. I don’t have to buy a new gun (I hear your ‘boos’…).
2. Buy a spring and some ammo and I’m set
3. I already have a chest holster

Questions:
1. Is there anything wrong with what I wrote above? Do I need more than just a spring for example?
2. In terms of a woods gun, what do you think…I think it’s a small step up from my snubnose SP101…
3. One guy I saw said he carried two mags of the 45 Super and one of snake shot. That seemed like a good idea to me.

 

[The Glockodile]

Off - topic, but would you consider purchasing a Heckler & Koch USP or Mark 23 for .45 Super instead?

Those two guns work very well out of the box with hotter loads in this caliber by virtue of their slide weight / recoil assembly design.

 

[JTQ]

Since I'm probably the one that gave you the idea of .45 Super in your other thread, the same guy who was using the HK USP 45, had gone through several other options before settling on the USP 45 (1911's, S&W 4506, big revolvers, etc). Most (all?) were found to be lacking in some area. Not durable enough, didn't feed reliability, were heavy, lacked capacity, or any other number of reasons. He mentioned he really doesn't shoot the USP 45 that well (it is extremely accurate, but a tough gun to shoot fast), but it's advantages were feed reliability, durability, and capacity for that round, which were the things he valued most for that application.

Regarding the snake shot - do the snake shot rounds reliably cycle his 1911 slide?

 

[The Glockodile]

Got it.

Those Heckler & Koch pistols do take some getting used to…

 

[JTQ]

Got it.

Those Heckler & Koch pistols do take some getting used to…

My post was to the OP (we were probably typing at the same time), you may have understood that, but it appears you may be responding to my post.

 

[Alaskamike]

Hopefully someone much more knowledgeable than I about running .45 Super in the 1911 will chime in here.

I don't think just slapping in a higher power recoil spring is good enough to start running .45 Super in a 1911. From the research I've done, at a minimum you also want to go with a flat bottom firing pin stop, and probably also stronger mainspring and firing pin spring. I've also seen reference to needing stronger magazine springs, but that seems more gun dependent. Shock buffers are also sometimes recommended, but of course they're controversial.

Good luck, and stay safe,
Mike

 

[Gordon]

I built a .45 Super on a gen 3 Glock 21 using a Aftermarket better supported chamber 5" threaded barrel . I mounted a single chamber dual ported brake as recommended to control the mechanism recoils and went with the DPM adjustable spring system to tune to my load development. It worked ok and I was able to get 1200 fps Speer Flying ashtrays to 1200 fps and my 255 grain hard cast to just over 1000 fps easy enough with Accurate powder loadings which was more than enough for me ! I bought 100 Starline .45 super brass and bought Underwood ammo to start with testing for the DPM spring set up. But after seeing ballistic gel testing of 10 mm 200 grain and 220 grain loadings in the same velocity range I began to think the 10mm was the best way to go for the Orgon Bear Defense gun for my son and I . He bought a Glock 20 and I bought a Sig X-ten . Those guns seem to function with stout .40 S&W loads BTW. I put the stock Glock 21 spring into my .45 Super experiment and now use it for my .45 Suppressor host . My son put the DPM system from it in his Glock 20 and it seems to work great at the setting I developed for the .45 Super loads. I use the Comp on the Glock 21 as a thread protector for when the Suppressor is not on. So it all worked out well.

45 Super vs 10mm - I didn't expect THIS!

MAC Website & PrimaryArms website link: http://www.militaryarms.orgJoin Patreon and support MAC! http://www.patreon.com/militaryarms SubscribeStar: https://w...

www.youtube.com

 

[ExAgoradzo]

Again,
Guys I really appreciate your comments… I am reading/listening. I value experience and this is an area I have none…

Let’s say I buy the HK, it seems that it would be a step down (small one) in performance from the 10mm…is that your experience?

Since my LGS has (6) 10mm under their glass at the moment (I didn’t check the availability of 45S ammo on their shelf and I don’t reload pistol ammo, the 10mm seems leading in that dept.

If I can’t safely upgrade my Kimber, if you guys don’t tell me I’m wrong, then I’ll likely go 10. Totally wanting input here..

Greg

 

[Riomouse911]

My factory-built 1911 .45 Super is a Springfield V-16 long slide. The recoil spring is really stiff, plus the slide is extra heavy and the barrel is ported with 16 ports to mitigate the recoil. It will shoot .45 ACP with no alterations. I don’t know why or how but it does. (You can just make out the flame exiting the barrel porting with plain old WWB 230 FMJ.)





I personally wouldn't just swap in a stiffer recoil spring in a 1911 and start shooting super ammo. I think that will be a recipe for greatly accelerating wear on the frame, lugs and barrel linkage, slide stop, etc. The trade off for this additional wear on your $1,000 pistol is a bit of an increase in power, but not in great leaps and bounds over a +P .45 ACP load.

You will not find .45 Super ammo on 95% of LGS shelves, unless they stock a full selection of Underwood or Buffalo Bore. There was a court battle in the 1990’s over the .45 Super name and trademarks by some guys with inflated ego’s. This drove away anyone wanting to build new factory guns or load ammo for it because royalties would need to be paid, so once SA stopped V-16 production, Triton folded and then Texas Ammunition went away. So the round had basically died. ( I actually ordered my last bit of .45 Super factory ammo above from The Sportsman's Guide on closeout, in roughly 1999-2000.) Conversion kits and parts to convert guns still are out there, Starline still makes brass, and any .45 ACP dies will load it, so the .45 Super is not completely dead.



IMHO, after nearly 30 years of owning a .45 Super, the Glock 21/USP/5” Xd/ M&P .45 ACP type guns are better suited to convert to make them .45 Super compatible. If I was to roll my own ,45 Super, one of these would be the route I took.

YMMV.

Stay safe.

 

[JTQ]

I wouldn't chase .45 Super. It's not a common round and there are virtually no "specific" .45 Super guns. Most are actually .45 Auto guns with some combination of modification, that you have to figure out, to avoid destroying your gun in some way.

I'd pick a .40 S&W gun, or if they fit me OK, a 10mm gun and use those Underwood Penetrator rounds.

 

[jmr40]

Another option. Keep the 45 you have as is and just buy some better ammo for it. Although instead of being limited to 8 round in a 1911 I might invest in a lighter gun with a light rail that held more rounds. Glock and the Smith M&P both fill that role and can be found used cheap.

45 ACP +P OUTDOORSMAN

45 ACP +P OUTDOORSMAN

www.buffalobore.com

I know that contradicts what I've actually done, but I sometimes wonder if I really need my 10mm. Especially since I live in the South and black bear are the only thing I'll see. We have a trip planned next summer to Glacier and Yellowstone parks where there are larger, and more aggressive bear. After that trip I may well sell my 10mm. I have other pistols in 9mm and 45 that I think would be fine for where I live.

I base that on these studies. These guys have been documenting actual bear attacks where people defended themselves with handguns. It seems that despite all the old wife's tales we've heard common handgun rounds do pretty good. So far they have documented 93 attacks and only 3 times where shots were fired and the handgun failed to stop the attack. Many of these were with 44 mag, but much less powerful cartridges such as 9mm, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP have been used successfully. And most with common loads. I'd think the hotter heavy for caliber loads from Buffalo Bore and others would be even better.

https://www.ammoland.com/2020/03/update-handgun-or-pistol-against-bear-attack-93-cases-97-effective/

This case is profiled in the study above but deserves a special mention. Phil Shoemaker, a noted brown bear and fishing guide in Alaska killed a brown bear that attacked a fisherman he was guiding several years ago. He killed the bear with a 9mm sub compact pistol loaded with 147 gr Buffalo Bore ammo. I'm not brave enough to carry a 9mm in that setting. But it proves that under ideal conditions it can work.

Alaskan Fishing Guide Kills Grizzly with 9 mm

If there was any doubt that a 9 mm pistol could protect you against a grizzly bear, a long-time fishing and hunting guide has a shocking story to tell.

www.liveoutdoors.com

The ammo

9MM +P OUTDOORSMAN

9MM +P OUTDOORSMAN

www.buffalobore.com

I've seen some ballistic gel testing with that load. They only had 60" of gel and didn't catch the bullets. That is a lot of penetration.

 

[wanderinwalker]

Again,
Guys I really appreciate your comments… I am reading/listening. I value experience and this is an area I have none…

Let’s say I buy the HK, it seems that it would be a step down (small one) in performance from the 10mm…is that your experience?

Since my LGS has (6) 10mm under their glass at the moment (I didn’t check the availability of 45S ammo on their shelf and I don’t reload pistol ammo, the 10mm seems leading in that dept.

If I can’t safely upgrade my Kimber, if you guys don’t tell me I’m wrong, then I’ll likely go 10. Totally wanting input here..

Greg

Since you don't reload, the 10mm is the no-brainer option here. I worked in a fairly busy and generally well-stocked gunshop for 4 years and I never saw any .45 Super ammo pass through. Not a single round in that whole time, and I saw plenty of oddball stuff while I was there. (Vintage .32 and .25-rimfire ammunition, big Kynoch elephant cartridges, .376 Styer, and others I'm forgetting at the moment.)

Converting a 1911 to run .45 Super is going to take at a minimum a new recoil spring, main spring and firing pin spring. A small radius firing pin stop would be beneficial. I hadn't heard or read you need to go with a full-on compensated barrel like with a .460 Rowland conversion, but I can see how it might help too. With good magazines like Wilson ETMs you might not need to upgrade the magazine springs to keep up with the slide.

Short story: a modern 10mm is going to the Easy button solution.

 

[Anchorite]

BTDT. I jumped on the Super bandwagon probably 15 years or so ago. I still have my 4506. I fianlly realized that a good, plus-P 45ACP will do about anything the Super would do, and be easier on my pistol.

You could up your recoil spring and get into the Super, but look at the good ol’ +P.

The 10?? Nah. Boutique loads are what…200grs? 180grs?
You’re 45 is bigger in diameter and has more on-board payload than that 10.

 

[Anchorite]

Another option. Keep the 45 you have as is and just buy some better ammo for it. Although instead of being limited to 8 round in a 1911 I might invest in a lighter gun with a light rail that held more rounds. Glock and the Smith M&P both fill that role and can be found used cheap.

45 ACP +P OUTDOORSMAN

45 ACP +P OUTDOORSMAN

www.buffalobore.com

I know that contradicts what I've actually done, but I sometimes wonder if I really need my 10mm. Especially since I live in the South and black bear are the only thing I'll see. We have a trip planned next summer to Glacier and Yellowstone parks where there are larger, and more aggressive bear. After that trip I may well sell my 10mm. I have other pistols in 9mm and 45 that I think would be fine for where I live.

I base that on these studies. These guys have been documenting actual bear attacks where people defended themselves with handguns. It seems that despite all the old wife's tales we've heard common handgun rounds do pretty good. So far they have documented 93 attacks and only 3 times where shots were fired and the handgun failed to stop the attack. Many of these were with 44 mag, but much less powerful cartridges such as 9mm, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP have been used successfully. And most with common loads. I'd think the hotter heavy for caliber loads from Buffalo Bore and others would be even better.

https://www.ammoland.com/2020/03/update-handgun-or-pistol-against-bear-attack-93-cases-97-effective/

This case is profiled in the study above but deserves a special mention. Phil Shoemaker, a noted brown bear and fishing guide in Alaska killed a brown bear that attacked a fisherman he was guiding several years ago. He killed the bear with a 9mm sub compact pistol loaded with 147 gr Buffalo Bore ammo. I'm not brave enough to carry a 9mm in that setting. But it proves that under ideal conditions it can work.

Alaskan Fishing Guide Kills Grizzly with 9 mm

If there was any doubt that a 9 mm pistol could protect you against a grizzly bear, a long-time fishing and hunting guide has a shocking story to tell.

www.liveoutdoors.com

The ammo

9MM +P OUTDOORSMAN

9MM +P OUTDOORSMAN

www.buffalobore.com

I've seen some ballistic gel testing with that load. They only had 60" of gel and didn't catch the bullets. That is a lot of penetration.

The SD of a 230gr .452 is like .161 and the SD of the 147gr 9mm is like .167, if memory serves.

 

[Ru4real]

It looks like with changing the recoil spring I can use my Kimber Custom Target II as a 45 Super gun.

I was doing this for a few years with my Kimber Classic Stainless LE. Then I bought a 10mm and realized I was spinning my wheels for those few years pretending I had a 45 Super.

Get a 10.

 

[JohnMc]

3. I don’t get a new gun

This is the worst of all possible outcomes!
Just kidding. Maybe.
One 10mm pro: you'll never accidentally load 10mm into a gun with the same size chamber that can't handle it, because it's not the same size as another round.
And the capacity improvement is nice, too. Even in a 1911 it yields one more round in a Government frame (9 vs 8) standard magazine.

 

[someguy2800]

As much as I’d like for it to work, I just don’t shoot my 44 revolvers as well as I’d like so also thinking about trying 45 super in an M&P. One hesitation is I only shoot outside in the grass and I only ever seen to get about 50% or less of my brass back. Plus then ill have to sort it out from my 45 brass. Same reason I don’t have any 380’s, that darn brass always finds it’s way into my 9mm bucket.

 

[bnolsen]

45 smc is what you want over 45 super (better primers). I personally would only trust that to an hk usp or modified glock 21/41.

 

[C0untZer0]

If you look at the terminal ballistics of some of these 45+P cartridges, they are pretty awesome. More than adequate to stop humans wearing heavy clothing as well as bears.

But if you want to be prepared for a hostile grizzly bear wearing a leather jacket over a jean jacket, flannel shirt with a T-shirt underneath, you might need .429 DE:

.429 DE - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[gnappi]

I can't fault the .45ACP or the 10mm, they're equal to, or more than most will ever need.

When I stumbled onto a Springer V16 and bought it I thought WOW, I can't wait to load it up! Then I looked realistically at it and my 10mm and thought I just would use it it as a .45ACP and am not sorry.

 

[ExAgoradzo]

If you look at the terminal ballistics of some of these 45+P cartridges, they are pretty awesome. More than adequate to stop humans wearing heavy clothing as well as bears.

But if you want to be prepared for a hostile grizzly bear wearing a leather jacket over a jean jacket, flannel shirt with a T-shirt underneath, you might need .429 DE:

.429 DE - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Not nice.
Now I’ll dream about a cartridge I’d never heard of before today!

Greg

 

[murf]

As much as I’d like for it to work, I just don’t shoot my 44 revolvers as well as I’d like so also thinking about trying 45 super in an M&P. One hesitation is I only shoot outside in the grass and I only ever seen to get about 50% or less of my brass back. Plus then ill have to sort it out from my 45 brass. Same reason I don’t have any 380’s, that darn brass always finds it’s way into my 9mm bucket.

Get a big tarp.

murf

 

[TomJ]

OP,

I know absolutely nothing about 45 Super but I did remember reading something about it on Buffalo Bore's web site and pasted that information below. It's pretty brief, but what jumped out at me was the statement about battering your gun if the correct modifications are not done.


45 Super is externally/dimensionally identical to 45 ACP or 45 ACP +P and is designed to be used in 45 ACP semi-auto pistols that have been fitted with stronger than normal recoil springs and a shock buffer, plus a couple of other modifications. While you can shoot 45 SUPER out of some stock 45 acp+P pistols such as the Glock 21, HK USP, or the full-sized all steel 1911, you will batter your pistol if you do not have them modified to handle the extra pressure and slide velocity of the 45 Super.

To learn about the modifications your 45 ACP pistol needs to reliably and safely fire 45 SUPER, contact Garey Hindman at 936-402-3484. Garey is the foremost authority on 45 Super modifications/conversions for your 45 ACP and Garey performs such conversions for a living.

 

[JR24]

Another option. Keep the 45 you have as is and just buy some better ammo for it. Although instead of being limited to 8 round in a 1911 I might invest in a lighter gun with a light rail that held more rounds. Glock and the Smith M&P both fill that role and can be found used cheap.

45 ACP +P OUTDOORSMAN

45 ACP +P OUTDOORSMAN

www.buffalobore.com

I know that contradicts what I've actually done, but I sometimes wonder if I really need my 10mm. Especially since I live in the South and black bear are the only thing I'll see. We have a trip planned next summer to Glacier and Yellowstone parks where there are larger, and more aggressive bear. After that trip I may well sell my 10mm. I have other pistols in 9mm and 45 that I think would be fine for where I live.

I base that on these studies. These guys have been documenting actual bear attacks where people defended themselves with handguns. It seems that despite all the old wife's tales we've heard common handgun rounds do pretty good. So far they have documented 93 attacks and only 3 times where shots were fired and the handgun failed to stop the attack. Many of these were with 44 mag, but much less powerful cartridges such as 9mm, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP have been used successfully. And most with common loads. I'd think the hotter heavy for caliber loads from Buffalo Bore and others would be even better.

https://www.ammoland.com/2020/03/update-handgun-or-pistol-against-bear-attack-93-cases-97-effective/

This case is profiled in the study above but deserves a special mention. Phil Shoemaker, a noted brown bear and fishing guide in Alaska killed a brown bear that attacked a fisherman he was guiding several years ago. He killed the bear with a 9mm sub compact pistol loaded with 147 gr Buffalo Bore ammo. I'm not brave enough to carry a 9mm in that setting. But it proves that under ideal conditions it can work.

Alaskan Fishing Guide Kills Grizzly with 9 mm

If there was any doubt that a 9 mm pistol could protect you against a grizzly bear, a long-time fishing and hunting guide has a shocking story to tell.

www.liveoutdoors.com

The ammo

9MM +P OUTDOORSMAN

9MM +P OUTDOORSMAN

www.buffalobore.com

I've seen some ballistic gel testing with that load. They only had 60" of gel and didn't catch the bullets. That is a lot of penetration.

I use something similar, but made by Underwood, as my general woods round now that I’m not in grizzly country.

Runs fine in my 1911s, Glock 21 or HK45c so there’s plenty of options.

As to OP, I had a lot of the same questions and options as you did years back and just eventually went with a 10mm (mines a RIA 1911) and I’m happy I did, 10mm is a fun round and since I reload there’s a lot of flexibility with the cartridge in terms of weights and speeds to play with.

Still kinda wish I had a Glock 20 too though, maybe some day I’ll get one or a slide at least