45acp Case Life Longevity Test Update (non-scientific)

[CQB45ACP]

This is just informational for any of you interested.

Since late spring-early summer, I’ve been loading from the same batch of Winchester cases. This was primarily out of curiosity to see how long the cases would last before splitting, etc.

This is not/was not intended to be a strictly controlled scientific analysis—it’s out of curiosity.

Being a former government bureaucrat, there has been plenty of scope creep as I tested.

Not too long after I started, my test expanded to include watching for case shortening and primer pocket gauging after each use. This article was a contributing cause—http://www.floridareloading.com/index.php/2017/02/04/how-many-times-can-i-reload-45-acp-brass/

I measured case length and arbitrarily stopped loading cases under .893” So, my total case universe dropped considerably.

The photo below from left to right shows four sub-batches of cases—under .890”, .891-.892”, .893”, and .894” and over. Again, I’m now only loading from the last two and they’re being depleted noticeably due mostly to case loss and not shortening (my strong suspicion but not swearing to it).

I shoot about 100 of these per week and estimate each case has been used a half-dozen times. They had been used an untold number of times before the test began. They’ve been 230gr plated RN at 1.260” or Acme coated at 1.250” using either 5.2gr W231 or 4.5gr Bullseye. So, light loads.

Undersized die, no expanding, no crimp for plated (another scope creep).

Bottom line—some primer pockets seem tighter NOT looser, none seem looser, and NO cases have split.

I can think of a number of improvements to this process and likely will hear some more from you. No offense but it’s unlikely I’ll do any that require more effort on my part

 

[Walkalong]

You'll grow old trying to wear out .45 ACP brass, looking forward to your take on it, if I live that long.

 

[jmorris]

^
Yeah, it’s probably the longest life brass on the range. These are a couple I have picked up after matches. Wonder how many times even that young one has been used over the last 50 years…

 

[CQB45ACP]

You'll grow old trying to wear out .45 ACP brass, looking forward to your take on it, if I live that long.

Too late for me growing old but maybe I’ll get to see one of those loose primer pockets I’ve heard about.

 

[CQB45ACP]

^
Yeah, it’s probably the longest life brass on the range. These are a couple I have picked up after matches. Wonder how many times even that young one has been used over the last 50 years…

View attachment 1181183

Well, only 30 safely.

 

[N555]

I tested this back around 2005. I selected the cheapest lightest brass at the time, Remington. Started with 10 cases, ended with 6 after a total of 8 reloads. Going from 10 down to 6 was me losing them, not that those cases became unusable.
As I typically lose at least 10% to 90% of my brass. I figured 8 reloads is way more than I would normally get.

So you say they shrink?

 

[CQB45ACP]

I tested this back around 2005. I selected the cheapest lightest brass at the time, Remington. Started with 10 cases, ended with 6 after a total of 8 reloads. Going from 10 down to 6 was me losing them, not that those cases became unusable.
As I typically lose at least 10% to 90% of my brass. I figured 8 remoade is way more than I would normally get.

So you say they shrink?

Yes they shorten although I’m having a difficult time convincing myself I’ve actually seen it because I keep losing the darned things. 10% is my typical loss too.

Take a look at the article I linked to.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

It’s my suspicion this is how the internet vendors get away with calling every piece of found brass “once fired.”

 

[Show Me]

Excellent reading. First is once fired like calling every adjustable wrench a crescent wrench or fired by the last fella. Next I step on or loose more than I ever see split. Expander maybe? So low pressure my coffee can full seems to be lasting forever. It's like sticking it to the man to keep reusing. Did buy "fired by the last guy to abandon" small primer brass to use some of my over purchase of small primers. Stories like this is why I joined the club.

 

[rdnktrkr]

I had a friend give me 2 coffee cans of 45acp spp and 1k spp primers for 1k LPP about 15 years ago, each was fired at least once and has been fired multiple times by my family and I, I've lost some through the years and have damaged some while reloading, but can't remember any with split cases or bad primer pockets

 

[N555]

Only bad primer pockets I have had with pistol brass is every once in a while I get outdoor brass and when depriming I'll get one where the anvil rips through the surface of the primer, leaving the rest of the primer stuck in the pocket.

 

[zeke]

45 acp can shorten over time. partially to the result of resizing displacing brass down ward. This can be remedied by full length sizing with push through die, or modifying lyman die/shell holder to resize down further. Certain brass does loose it's elasticity quicker, as in rem cases. Finally set aside my "42" cases, but still using the earlier match brass. Have had some brass unzip, and other cases have the headstamp pounded out.

 

[CQB45ACP]

BTW, I’m surprised no one has commented on the image on the silicone spray can visible between the powder bottles. Look like anyone we know?

 

[N555]

BTW, I’m surprised no one has commented on the image on the silicone spray can visible between the powder bottles. Look like anyone we know?

I use vegetable oil spray.

 

[GE-Mini-Gun]

I have one from my father early 40's...I couldn't begin to count how many times it's been loaded; the amazing thing is, it hasn't been lost in all those years. I loaded it year ago or so and now it sets in the reloading room.

 

[tmd16556]

I’m still loading some 1930s vintage 38 special brass. Now it was loaded a lot in the 30s and 50s then sat until about 2008 before I started loading it. I’m getting a significant failure rate from split necks during my recent return to loading 38s. I suspect most of the failure is from work hardening after flaring and crimping, since the cracks rarely run far from the neck.

 

[rtufixer]

This is just informational for any of you interested.

Since late spring-early summer, I’ve been loading from the same batch of Winchester cases. This was primarily out of curiosity to see how long the cases would last before splitting, etc.

This is not/was not intended to be a strictly controlled scientific analysis—it’s out of curiosity.

Being a former government bureaucrat, there has been plenty of scope creep as I tested.

Not too long after I started, my test expanded to include watching for case shortening and primer pocket gauging after each use. This article was a contributing cause—http://www.floridareloading.com/index.php/2017/02/04/how-many-times-can-i-reload-45-acp-brass/

I measured case length and arbitrarily stopped loading cases under .893” So, my total case universe dropped considerably.

The photo below from left to right shows four sub-batches of cases—under .890”, .891-.892”, .893”, and .894” and over. Again, I’m now only loading from the last two and they’re being depleted noticeably due mostly to case loss and not shortening (my strong suspicion but not swearing to it).

I shoot about 100 of these per week and estimate each case has been used a half-dozen times. They had been used an untold number of times before the test began. They’ve been 230gr plated RN at 1.260” or Acme coated at 1.250” using either 5.2gr W231 or 4.5gr Bullseye. So, light loads.

Undersized die, no expanding, no crimp for plated (another scope creep).

Bottom line—some primer pockets seem tighter NOT looser, none seem looser, and NO cases have split.

I can think of a number of improvements to this process and likely will hear some more from you. No offense but it’s unlikely I’ll do any that require more effort on my part

View attachment 1181180

I'm still using the 2000 pieces of 45 brass I bought new R-P cases 30 years ago

 

[wanderinwalker]

I have doubts it's possible to wear out .45 ACP brass without a brass catcher and a lot of work. I'm not sure I've ever seen a split .45 ACP case and I haven't run into any with loose primer pockets yet either. Of course the oldest .45 ACP cases I have have only been in rotation since 2017, so they're not particularly old. And I have so many cases it's unlikely any one case has hit 10 reloads yet. But I have suspicions .45 ACP cases rival .38 Special cases in terms of immortality.

 

[Bazoo]

I appreciate the thread, and the info. I've seen where others have had 30 or more loads on a single 45 auto case, though I don't have the article currently. Uniforming the primer pocket when it gets short will be the ticket to seeing how long you can go I think. But I'll guess around 80-120 loadings. I've seen a couple longevity tests on 38 special that went in that range.

I've loaded some 45 auto cases that were from the 40s, 50s, and 60s. I finally gave them away PIF to someone because they were old and neat and deserved to be with someone that had a vintage gun and wouldn't lose them in the weeds.

I did a 30-30 case life test a while back that you might find interesting if you haven't seen it before. https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/30-30-case-life-test.896133/

 

[CQB45ACP]

I mean no disrespect to the brethren, but I want some empirical data to go with my internet story. And pictures.

While I say this isn’t scientific it’s more controlled and documented by a long shot than anecdotes about 100 year old cases still going strong.

To repeat, I started with a discrete universe of Winchester cases (no more than 400 probably closer to 300) with the goal of wearing them out if possible. I only load from this batch and shoot 14 magazines each week (112 rounds). I recovered all cases this past Monday, but most of the time I’ll lose some.

Somewhere after all this started, I got into a should I trim discussion—answer, no—which lead me to sorting cases by length as shown in my picture at top of thread. This greatly reduced the universe of cases from which I loaded. I arbitrarily picked .893” as my cutoff below which I wouldn’t use. I measure all recovered cases each week.

Now a new picture…from post-Monday’s range visit. Compare to the intro picture if you wish.

Note the cases in the plastic baggie—43 of them now measure shorter than .893”!

Do 45acp cases get shorter? Apparently these have. OR, if you prefer, I mismeasured them before or after or both. I’d simply ask what’s the probability of that much mismeasuring? AND all that mismeasuring is shorter, not longer? But that’s for you to worry about I’m not worried about it one way or the other. I’m simply going to load those over .893” until I run out and have to use shorter ones from my original universe.

I’ll discuss observations about primer pockets later.

 

[zeke]

45 acp cases get shorter. 45 acp cases that are too short to headspace on the rim, are held in place by the extractor (unless something funky). Or with light lead loads, the forward edge of the bullets full dia can be used to headspace. Have worn out 45 acp cases that were discarded for splitting, or less commonly by enlarged primer pockets.

 

[CQB45ACP]

45 acp cases get shorter. 45 acp cases that are too short to headspace on the rim, are held in place by the extractor (unless something funky). Or with light lead loads, the forward edge of the bullets full dia can be used to headspace. Have worn out 45 acp cases that were discarded for splitting, or less commonly by enlarged primer pockets.

Yes, never doubted they shorten, but wanted to see for myself and more convincingly as documented in the article (although author did not see the extractor issue regardless how short the case was).

Nor did he see loosening primer pockets. Rather just opposite. I sense I’m getting tightening and not loosening but am not making that claim at this point.

 

[zeke]

Well , went back and actually read the article. The case heads are obviously peened over from the center, and it certainly appears the case body has expanded in front of the groove. Don't imagine the case rim gets peened over from going straight back, but from being ejected out. Have never had a primer pocket get noticeably shallower, but never actually measured them and clean my primer pockets each time? Another thing we assume is that all cases will act the same, and there are significant differences in brass composition between brands. Starline is excellent brass, but imo softer than most other makes. Recognized my cases were getting shorter when using them in a tighter chambered pistol and they wouldn't feed into the chamber all the way. Went looking for a reason and started doing measurements. Found the diameter of the brass before the groove had expanded, and the cases had shortened. Ran them through a push through die and the cases returned to within spec length and dia. They had lost a lot of elasticity, which is one of the reasons for getting a u die. These cases were bought in a batch of reloads over 30 yrs ago, and were fired multiple times before i got them, and can't remember how many time i reloaded them.

 

[CQB45ACP]

Well , went back and actually read the article. The case heads are obviously peened over from the center, and it certainly appears the case body has expanded in front of the groove. Don't imagine the case rim gets peened over from going straight back, but from being ejected out. Have never had a primer pocket get noticeably shallower, but never actually measured them and clean my primer pockets each time? Another thing we assume is that all cases will act the same, and there are significant differences in brass composition between brands. Starline is excellent brass, but imo softer than most other makes. Recognized my cases were getting shorter when using them in a tighter chambered pistol and they wouldn't feed into the chamber all the way. Went looking for a reason and started doing measurements. Found the diameter of the brass before the groove had expanded, and the cases had shortened. Ran them through a push through die and the cases returned to within spec length and dia. They had lost a lot of elasticity, which is one of the reasons for getting a u die. These cases were bought in a batch of reloads over 30 yrs ago, and were fired multiple times before i got them, and can't remember how many time i reloaded them.

I’m using all Winchester to try and reduce inconsistent brass but (and I have no data to support) I feel things are different even within same brand. Some softer brass than others for example.

The author’s findings on primer pocket shallowing are so dramatic I find it hard to believe I hadn’t heard of it before. And it makes me wonder if it’s risky using a uniformer too often?

I do use a U die but for reasons independent of any of this.

I’ll just keep doing the best I can with the knowledge and abilities I have and try and have fun doing it. Thanks for engaging.

Oh yeah…what push die are you using and could you describe a little more?

 

[zeke]

Oh yeah…what push die are you using and could you describe a little more?

Lee makes a kit https://leeprecision.com/bulge-buster-kit. Believe redding makes a specific die, but pricy

However, after realizing what was going on, took a lyman carbide die and rolled over the leading edge towards the inside so it would size further down the case. Also shaved some off the shell holder so now any "bulging" gets sized out and the cases don't shorten. Am using single stage press. Have a preference for Win 45 acp brass, but have not bought any new brass for awhile.

It is simply astonishing what happens when you question some conventional wisdom, actually look, start questioning, experimenting and measuring.

Before that article have never seen or heard of a primer pocket getting shorter, but can't automatically discount it just because of never experiencing it.