ModernTechnician
member
- Joined
- Oct 21, 2006
- Messages
- 13
I'll get in trouble for this one, you can bet on that!
I just sent this as an e-mail to a Firearms Expert...
"I am responding to your article: More about 5.56mm Lethality.
I find it incredible that we are having the same argument we were engaged in during the Vietnam War.
The point was then and is now, that if the U.S. continues to mandate FMJ ammunition, the switch to the 5.56mm round is a dangerous concept (for our troops.) In terrain where dense foliage is encountered it borders on criminally insane.
I was a member of A USMC Reconnaissance Battalion and served three tours in Viet Nam. In that war Special Forces troops (specially those troops that shadowed that enemy in the field,) were permitted to carry pretty much what they wanted. The clear winners were 7.62mm AK(s), 7.62mm M60(s), 7.62mm MAG 58(s) even the 7,62mm M-14 and of course in close range, Shot Guns. Pistol cartridge weapons were early disappointments and despite the gun rags of the day extolling the virtues of the Swedish K(s) and Uzi(s), firing the full patch 9mm Parabellum were HUGE disappointments in the field! Hush Puppy and Welrod carrying designees shot for eye sockets.
7.62mm NATO rounds had the advantage of being more difficult to deflect, unlike the 5.56mm. Even the snubbed 7.62 X 39mm Soviet was observed to have better capability in theater although lacking some in long range abilities. The issue 5.56mm (.223) was woeful at best, the projectile had extremely poor penetrating capabilities often deflected by twigs and light foliage! In wet climates the water would often bead up in the barrel and if you didn’t elevate the muzzle and open the bolt to drain off the water, a round would burst the barrel rendering the weapon useless. A buttstroke or frag hit on the stock turned it into a paperweight, similarly the top of the forend.
(I remember the allies questioning a prisoner in the Parrot Beak incursion. When asked why his unit which had been in a good defensive position with a huge advantage in numbers had abandoned their posts and melted away so quickly? He responded that when it became obvious that the small Special Forces units (of Colonel Simmons) were armed with heavier weapons that could borough through the hasty cover intended to defeat the 5.56mm firing M-16(s), they fell back on their training which told them to disperse and create smaller units that would cover retreats to minor fall back positions (not giving away the major facilities they had,) even melding in with friendly noncombatants as they went. We were astonished!)
Special Forces units bonded together and made the recommendations (among others) that, heavier caliber longer ranged weapons were necessary. Their belief was that the next conflagration would be in the sand, not the jungle. FMJ ammunition should be done away with, as it minimized the damage to the enemy and maximized collateral damage to civilians and friendly forces. The reliance on fully automatic fire was tactically unsound and in fact dangerous. And finally that a weapon that had to be cleaned at every available opportunity to remain reliable, was not a system that we needed or wanted. Finally that weapon systems for the Infantry should be designed by Infantryman with combat experience, and mediocre systems meant to satisfy logisticians needed to be set aside as poor tactics, period.
Our belief was that caseless ammunition developments and sintered metal projectile technology would be utilized and answer our requests. But that was not and has not been the case! I guess that is what happens when a Country changes from a Nation of Hunters Plinkers and Gun Bearers to one that surrenders weaponry for greater public safety touted by a press that has long since surrendered all loyalty to anything but ratings and themselves.
We were assured that our concerns would be met. Largely that was a lie. Only Marine Commanders acted on our recommendation about Desert Warfare Training, with the exception of one deployment in Egypt.
Then President Carter signed our M1911 .45 automatics away and charged the Pentagon to also adopt a 9mm sub gun, something Infantry had resisted in the field for years! The .300 Magnum was made even more difficult to field as a Sniper Weapon. The Interim 5.56mm M-16 became the integrated weapon system despite some revolt and active discarding in tank and APC units.
The M-16 was improved by Marines who knew how to shoot, but it was a case of making due with what you were issued. Not answering the system’s inadequacies.
They slipped the .50 Cal. Rifles by, probably telling all the armchair warriors that it was for Munitions Disposal! (God Job guys!)
Despite this, Desert Shield/Swarm went well due to air power and few noted the plethora of shortened and improved M60(s) and Sniper rifles.
From Mogadishu to the current Afghanistan and Iraq deployments, combat is taking on a different flavor and the Rocket Propelled Grenade Launchers and Explosives along with .30 caliber weapons all in abundance with our enemy are pointing out some glaring inadequacies that an absolutely fine group of young people have to deal with. The Nation should be appalled at the lack of common sense, ineptness and blatant disregard that went into its 5.56mm procurements! The common Infantry man does his best with what he is issued. In the public few cared and fewer still know the difference!
And that is why I wrote you this e-mail. The Firearms Community above all, should be unified and assist the advancement of adequate defensive and offensive weaponry! If I may borrow heavily on the similar Marine saying ‘Let no ghost ever come back and say ‘If only I had been better equipped!’
Your comment: ‘The assertion that a larger caliber would increase effectiveness so much that a smaller ammo load wouldn't matter is shaky at best.’ is one of appeasement. The technology is there to make a better round smaller AND lighter. The 6mm/223 experiments were exceptional; (A caseless 6.5mm boat tailed projectile with an exceptional ballistic co-efficient would be even better still.) A better platform would just be the greatest yet!!!
Not trying to hold where we’ve been and what we’ve done over anyone, if anyone wants to listen, great; if it is not that’s o.k. too, (it is what we are used to!) I’ll be gone soon, many of us old corps will. However if you want to earn the title firearm expert, earn it! Don’t stand in the way and hold your nose.
If Shooters Hunters and Hand-loaders don’t drive developments, you might find your Grandson or Granddaughter in the field with a 17 caliber plastic weapon and a tactical readjustment that allows higher losses among ground troops a more palatable ‘SOP’!
JSL
“I was at the range the other day and witnessed one of these ‘Cult of the AR’ gentlemen removing an aluminum rifle case from his new Cadillac, as his Son stood by waiting patiently. The gentleman put up a customized 5.56mm that had Picatinny rails sprouting from all directions and I’d hazard to guess there would be an appropriate spot on that rifle for just about anything an idle mind could dream up! My guess is that it must have set him back a few thousand dollars! His son when the area was clear removed a leather rifle case with three initials on it. He withdrew a laminated stocked M1 Garand that just took my breath away! When I got the opportunity I asked him why he was shooting the old ’06 dinosaur and he said, ‘It was my Grandfather’s rifle.’ and his rifle coach wanted him to practice with it because he could fire it at the 1,000 yard range back home and because it wasn’t bothered as much by shooting in the heavy wind at Black Canyon! As they were firing at the metallic silhouettes I pushed him a little and mentioned his father could carry much more ammo than he could in the field. After his father finished really struggling with the Rams, the boy walked up and downed 10 Rams for 10 shots with a sole clip reload. And after he cleared the weapon he smiled and said, ‘Yeah he needs to…’”
That you could carry 10 times more ammo if your personal defense weapon were a .22 short is not comfort enough to say that you are better armed tactically…
Specifically if that system jammed when you dropped in the yard."
Was curious how others here felt...
Thanks
I just sent this as an e-mail to a Firearms Expert...
"I am responding to your article: More about 5.56mm Lethality.
I find it incredible that we are having the same argument we were engaged in during the Vietnam War.
The point was then and is now, that if the U.S. continues to mandate FMJ ammunition, the switch to the 5.56mm round is a dangerous concept (for our troops.) In terrain where dense foliage is encountered it borders on criminally insane.
I was a member of A USMC Reconnaissance Battalion and served three tours in Viet Nam. In that war Special Forces troops (specially those troops that shadowed that enemy in the field,) were permitted to carry pretty much what they wanted. The clear winners were 7.62mm AK(s), 7.62mm M60(s), 7.62mm MAG 58(s) even the 7,62mm M-14 and of course in close range, Shot Guns. Pistol cartridge weapons were early disappointments and despite the gun rags of the day extolling the virtues of the Swedish K(s) and Uzi(s), firing the full patch 9mm Parabellum were HUGE disappointments in the field! Hush Puppy and Welrod carrying designees shot for eye sockets.
7.62mm NATO rounds had the advantage of being more difficult to deflect, unlike the 5.56mm. Even the snubbed 7.62 X 39mm Soviet was observed to have better capability in theater although lacking some in long range abilities. The issue 5.56mm (.223) was woeful at best, the projectile had extremely poor penetrating capabilities often deflected by twigs and light foliage! In wet climates the water would often bead up in the barrel and if you didn’t elevate the muzzle and open the bolt to drain off the water, a round would burst the barrel rendering the weapon useless. A buttstroke or frag hit on the stock turned it into a paperweight, similarly the top of the forend.
(I remember the allies questioning a prisoner in the Parrot Beak incursion. When asked why his unit which had been in a good defensive position with a huge advantage in numbers had abandoned their posts and melted away so quickly? He responded that when it became obvious that the small Special Forces units (of Colonel Simmons) were armed with heavier weapons that could borough through the hasty cover intended to defeat the 5.56mm firing M-16(s), they fell back on their training which told them to disperse and create smaller units that would cover retreats to minor fall back positions (not giving away the major facilities they had,) even melding in with friendly noncombatants as they went. We were astonished!)
Special Forces units bonded together and made the recommendations (among others) that, heavier caliber longer ranged weapons were necessary. Their belief was that the next conflagration would be in the sand, not the jungle. FMJ ammunition should be done away with, as it minimized the damage to the enemy and maximized collateral damage to civilians and friendly forces. The reliance on fully automatic fire was tactically unsound and in fact dangerous. And finally that a weapon that had to be cleaned at every available opportunity to remain reliable, was not a system that we needed or wanted. Finally that weapon systems for the Infantry should be designed by Infantryman with combat experience, and mediocre systems meant to satisfy logisticians needed to be set aside as poor tactics, period.
Our belief was that caseless ammunition developments and sintered metal projectile technology would be utilized and answer our requests. But that was not and has not been the case! I guess that is what happens when a Country changes from a Nation of Hunters Plinkers and Gun Bearers to one that surrenders weaponry for greater public safety touted by a press that has long since surrendered all loyalty to anything but ratings and themselves.
We were assured that our concerns would be met. Largely that was a lie. Only Marine Commanders acted on our recommendation about Desert Warfare Training, with the exception of one deployment in Egypt.
Then President Carter signed our M1911 .45 automatics away and charged the Pentagon to also adopt a 9mm sub gun, something Infantry had resisted in the field for years! The .300 Magnum was made even more difficult to field as a Sniper Weapon. The Interim 5.56mm M-16 became the integrated weapon system despite some revolt and active discarding in tank and APC units.
The M-16 was improved by Marines who knew how to shoot, but it was a case of making due with what you were issued. Not answering the system’s inadequacies.
They slipped the .50 Cal. Rifles by, probably telling all the armchair warriors that it was for Munitions Disposal! (God Job guys!)
Despite this, Desert Shield/Swarm went well due to air power and few noted the plethora of shortened and improved M60(s) and Sniper rifles.
From Mogadishu to the current Afghanistan and Iraq deployments, combat is taking on a different flavor and the Rocket Propelled Grenade Launchers and Explosives along with .30 caliber weapons all in abundance with our enemy are pointing out some glaring inadequacies that an absolutely fine group of young people have to deal with. The Nation should be appalled at the lack of common sense, ineptness and blatant disregard that went into its 5.56mm procurements! The common Infantry man does his best with what he is issued. In the public few cared and fewer still know the difference!
And that is why I wrote you this e-mail. The Firearms Community above all, should be unified and assist the advancement of adequate defensive and offensive weaponry! If I may borrow heavily on the similar Marine saying ‘Let no ghost ever come back and say ‘If only I had been better equipped!’
Your comment: ‘The assertion that a larger caliber would increase effectiveness so much that a smaller ammo load wouldn't matter is shaky at best.’ is one of appeasement. The technology is there to make a better round smaller AND lighter. The 6mm/223 experiments were exceptional; (A caseless 6.5mm boat tailed projectile with an exceptional ballistic co-efficient would be even better still.) A better platform would just be the greatest yet!!!
Not trying to hold where we’ve been and what we’ve done over anyone, if anyone wants to listen, great; if it is not that’s o.k. too, (it is what we are used to!) I’ll be gone soon, many of us old corps will. However if you want to earn the title firearm expert, earn it! Don’t stand in the way and hold your nose.
If Shooters Hunters and Hand-loaders don’t drive developments, you might find your Grandson or Granddaughter in the field with a 17 caliber plastic weapon and a tactical readjustment that allows higher losses among ground troops a more palatable ‘SOP’!
JSL
“I was at the range the other day and witnessed one of these ‘Cult of the AR’ gentlemen removing an aluminum rifle case from his new Cadillac, as his Son stood by waiting patiently. The gentleman put up a customized 5.56mm that had Picatinny rails sprouting from all directions and I’d hazard to guess there would be an appropriate spot on that rifle for just about anything an idle mind could dream up! My guess is that it must have set him back a few thousand dollars! His son when the area was clear removed a leather rifle case with three initials on it. He withdrew a laminated stocked M1 Garand that just took my breath away! When I got the opportunity I asked him why he was shooting the old ’06 dinosaur and he said, ‘It was my Grandfather’s rifle.’ and his rifle coach wanted him to practice with it because he could fire it at the 1,000 yard range back home and because it wasn’t bothered as much by shooting in the heavy wind at Black Canyon! As they were firing at the metallic silhouettes I pushed him a little and mentioned his father could carry much more ammo than he could in the field. After his father finished really struggling with the Rams, the boy walked up and downed 10 Rams for 10 shots with a sole clip reload. And after he cleared the weapon he smiled and said, ‘Yeah he needs to…’”
That you could carry 10 times more ammo if your personal defense weapon were a .22 short is not comfort enough to say that you are better armed tactically…
Specifically if that system jammed when you dropped in the yard."
Was curious how others here felt...
Thanks
