5.7x28 for defensive carry

[justin22885]

ummmm.....the 5.7 has FAR more muzzle energy that a .22wmr........approximately 2x the energy as a matter of fact.

the 5.7 has approximately the same muzzle energy as a .38special........now a .38 is not the most powerful round in the world, but i dont think anyone here doubts its effectiveness.

F = 1/2 M (V*V).

the velocity of the projectile is FAR more important to the energy than the bullet weight is.

sure, the bullet may only weight 30gr.....but its being thrown at over 2,000FPS.......thats nearly 400 ftlbs of energy.

first of all, youre looking at what the 5.7x28 does out of a P90 with a 10 or 16 inch barrel, the discussion is about a five-seven pistol where almost half its energy is lost due to the shorter barrel

also, energy is important, velocity means nothing if you dont have mass to the velocity, mass and velocty make up energy, one of these things by itself does nothing and while its true that doubling velocity quadruples energy, whereas doubling mass only doubles energy, the fact remains the 5.7x28 out of a pistol is closer to a .22 WMR than it is to even a 9mm

and lastly, the problem with low mass projectiles is they dont carry with them much momentum, if you had two projectiles of the same length, diameter, and shape made of two different materials where one will have more mass than the other, the one with more mass will generally have deeper penetration given the momentum... to give an example you can look at what a poor job 5.56/.223 does at barrier penetration vs a 7.62x39 traveling at much slower speeds but carrying with it more momentum

the best bullets for self defense are those that have the momentum to penetrate deep (12 inches or more) and the ability to disrupt as much tissue as possible.. the 5.7x28 generally falls short at doing both of these, tissue damage is nothing to right home about and penetration is shallower than it should be

again, much better off having 3 less rounds in the magazine by going with a 9mm.. besides, you'll save a ton of money that way too, not just on the overpriced FN but the overpriced ammo too

 

[C0untZer0]

I don't know how good of a shooter Hickock45 is, but assuming he isn't a Rob Leatham / Dave Sevigny type - he was able to put quite a few rounds on target in the blink of an eye.

The FiveSeveN seems to be very controllable.

 

[justin22885]

I don't know how good of a shooter Hickock45 is, but assuming he isn't a Rob Leatham / Dave Sevigny type - he was able to put quite a few rounds on target in the blink of an eye.

The FiveSeveN seems to be very controllable.

lmao at that.. as if a real world self defense scenario is going to look anything like a handgun shooting competition... seriously.. what is it with people fantasizing that self defense is anything like video games, hollywood, carrying out a mass shooting, or a handgun competition?... one part of the real world situation not present in ANY of those scenarios is the targets shooting, or fighting back.. the other element missing from those fantasy dream scenarios is that in a self defense situation, they'll pretty much get the chance to make the first move

to think youre going to put a bunch of rounds center mass on multiple targets 100+ yards away is just ridiculous... most self defense situations are over with only a couple rounds fired.. i suggest making those count instead of obsessing to the extreme over whether you have 17 rounds in a magazine or 20

and dont even try to deny what this is about.. no one on here seriously thinks the 5.7 is a better alternative to a 9mm in any category.. this is either about justifying a desire to buy an overprice five seven pistol, or some misguided obsession over magazine count

 

[eldon519]

and lastly, the problem with low mass projectiles is they dont carry with them much momentum, if you had two projectiles of the same length, diameter, and shape made of two different materials where one will have more mass than the other, the one with more mass will generally have deeper penetration given the momentum... to give an example you can look at what a poor job 5.56/.223 does at barrier penetration vs a 7.62x39 traveling at much slower speeds but carrying with it more momentum

The example you put forth does not match the criteria you laid out in any way. I also don't think it's a particularly valid principle either. Barnes copper bullets tend to achieve superior penetration to bullets of comparable weight and tend to perform more inline with the next weight step up.

 

[C0untZer0]

to think youre going to put a bunch of rounds center mass on multiple targets 100+ yards away is just ridiculous..

This is hyperbole ^

Hickock45 was firing at an old car door from about 15 feet, he made 2 groups about the size of pie plates and he did it very quickly.

It just seems to me that the gun is manageable, is it more manageable than a full-sized nine? I don't know.

and dont even try to deny what this is about.. no one on here seriously thinks the 5.7 is a better alternative to a 9mm in any category.. this is either about justifying a desire to buy an overprice five seven pistol, or some misguided obsession over magazine count

I think there is more to it than that. There are other people on other forums who have recently gone from carrying 380 ACP or 357 snub-nosed revolvers to the FiveseveN, I don't know if it is light of the string of terrorist attacks or not but I don't think their decisions can be discounted that easily.

 

[WinThePennant]

I think some of us are forgetting the initial point brought up by the OP. What would be a good pistol to have that would be suitable against a Paris, or Mumbai, style attack?

In such an attack (and, I am by no means an expert on anything 'tactical' -- grain of salt time), I think you'd want extra rounds with long range capability that can deliver sufficient lethal damage with a high degree of control.

What pistol cartridge can match the 5.7 as well across all those categories? Yes, it is an imperfect world. You almost always sacrifice something to get an edge in something else. The closest is probably the 10mm, but it loses out on the other categories (muzzle control and capacity).

Here is how I see it breakout (in no particular order):

1. Shoot flat out to 100 yards (9mm = No, 10mm = Yes, 5.7 = Yes).
2. High magazine capacity (9mm = Yes, 10mm = No, 5.7 = Yes).
3. High degree of control, ie, very little muzzle flip (9mm = Yes, 10mm = No, 5.7 = Yes).
4. Lethality (9mm = Yes), 10mm = Yes, 5.7 = Yes).

 

[eldon519]

I think it's a poor strategy to try to pick any handgun for the purpose of long distance engagement with guys with machine guns. Many of the survivors in incidents like these are the people who snuck away, laid low, or played dead. The general theme for those examples is successfully avoiding their attention. If you're shooting back in an across-the-room fight, I think you'll be toast pretty quick once a few guys start firing back at you with their AKs. In a Paris-like attack, it's tantamount to suicide. Maybe a single-assailant Aurora situation you might have a chance.

It's like the adage that if your only tool is a hammer, you look at every problem like a nail. Just because you have a gun handy doesn't mean the best answer is always shooting. There is already about a video per week on the news of both cops and civilians who get themselves in hot water with that mindset. Generally in CCW classes they try to hammer it home that having a gun doesn't mean using it should necessarily be your first choice.

 

[WinThePennant]

I think it's a poor strategy to try to pick any handgun for the purpose of long distance engagement with guys with machine guns. Many of the survivors in incidents like these are the people who snuck away, laid low, or played dead. The general theme for those examples is successfully avoiding their attention. If you're shooting back in an across-the-room fight, I think you'll be toast pretty quick once a few guys start firing back at you with their AKs. In a Paris-like attack, it's tantamount to suicide. Maybe a single-assailant Aurora situation you might have a chance.

It's like the adage that if your only tool is a hammer, you look at every problem like a nail. Just because you have a gun handy doesn't mean the best answer is always shooting. There is already about a video per week on the news of both cops and civilians who get themselves in hot water with that mindset. Generally in CCW classes they try to hammer it home that having a gun doesn't mean using it should necessarily be your first choice.

A lot of what you say makes sense.

But... That's not the point of the topic. I think everyone knows that the people who run during something like this are more likely to survive.

If you find yourself in a situation where you really need a pistol with you during a Paris style attack, what would be the one you'd like to have (given that you can't carry an AK-47 or AR-15 on your person all the time)?

It's an interesting topic. I don't think the, "Well, I'll just stick to my old stand-by" is the best <hypothetical> option.

 

[PabloJ]

A lot of what you say makes sense.

But... That's not the point of the topic. I think everyone knows that the people who run during something like this are more likely to survive.

If you find yourself in a situation where you really need a pistol with you during a Paris style attack, what would be the one you'd like to have (given that you can't carry an AK-47 or AR-15 on your person all the time)?

It's an interesting topic. I don't think the, "Well, I'll just stick to my old stand-by" is the best <hypothetical> option.

Again the best choice would be Glock 40 with 180gr JHPs with Vo of 1275+/-25fps. That combo gets excellent marks for: knockdown power, firepower and controllability for followup shots when needed.

 

[2ndunamended]

Again the best choice would be Glock 40 with 180gr JHPs with Vo of 1275+/-25fps. That combo gets excellent marks for: knockdown power, firepower and controllability for followup shots when needed.

Well.... I can't disagree that the G40 in 10mm would be a great choice, but I'd be hard pressed to conceal it underneath my tuxedo jacket.

 

[justin22885]

I think some of us are forgetting the initial point brought up by the OP. What would be a good pistol to have that would be suitable against a Paris, or Mumbai, style attack?

In such an attack (and, I am by no means an expert on anything 'tactical' -- grain of salt time), I think you'd want extra rounds with long range capability that can deliver sufficient lethal damage with a high degree of control.

What pistol cartridge can match the 5.7 as well across all those categories? Yes, it is an imperfect world. You almost always sacrifice something to get an edge in something else. The closest is probably the 10mm, but it loses out on the other categories (muzzle control and capacity).

Here is how I see it breakout (in no particular order):

1. Shoot flat out to 100 yards (9mm = No, 10mm = Yes, 5.7 = Yes).
2. High magazine capacity (9mm = Yes, 10mm = No, 5.7 = Yes).
3. High degree of control, ie, very little muzzle flip (9mm = Yes, 10mm = No, 5.7 = Yes).
4. Lethality (9mm = Yes), 10mm = Yes, 5.7 = Yes).

again, if you try to claim self defense shooting at targets 100+ yards away, you'll end up on a one way trip straight to prison

second of all, 5.7x28 is gutless at point blank, in what world do you think its actually going to be more effective at 100 yards?.. lets do some external ballistics calculations to find out

5.7x28mm, basing this off the common SS197 load which is a 40 grain v-max average 1750fps from a five-seven pistol, this means 264ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle

at 100 yards its traveling at 1404fps which comes out to 175ft/lbs of energy and a drop of 7.12inches

___

for the 9mm, lets use buffalo bores statistics out of the same barrel length.. 115 grain projectile traveling at 1,400fps, this is roughly 500ft/lbs of muzzle energy

at 100 yards you have 1064fps still delivering 289ft/lbs of muzzle energy and an 11.48" drop.. and this is total drop, this isnt even factoring in where your zero is actually at which would make these figures even closer together

this is only a couple inches more drop for significantly more power, more momentum, better barrier penetration, deeper penetration into soft tissue, and an expanding JHP projectile thats going to rip apart the flesh of anything hits.. and many recoil operated pistols are accurate enough to make targets at that distance, but like the five-seven, your small sights and incredibly short sight radius is going to make this an INCREDIBLY difficult feat and your 5.7x28 ammo isnt going to make it any easier, it just means you'll have less a chance at stomping a threat if you finally do manage to connect with one

and lastly, the glaring flaw in your logic, is if youre engaging a target at 100 yards out with a pistol, its because theyre shooting at you and anyone whos going to shoot at you from 100+ yards out is using a rifle, youre going to be dead before you get the first shot off, and if not he WILL hit you before you can hit him, plus he's packing 30 in the mag...

so carrying a five-seven because of this video game fantasy of engaging hostile targets equipped with rifles 100+ yards out in some unrealistic self defense scenario, while seriously neutering your ability to protect yourself at close range by using something that provides inferior ballistics.. its one of the worse ideas ive ever heard... and quite frankly its DANGEROUS to post such delusions on here where newer, more impressionable beginner shooters could actually get the impression it might be a good idea

 

[2ndunamended]

so carrying a five-seven because of this video game fantasy of engaging hostile targets equipped with rifles 100+ yards out in some unrealistic self defense scenario, while seriously neutering your ability to protect yourself at close range by using something that provides inferior ballistics.. its one of the worse ideas ive ever heard... and quite frankly its DANGEROUS to post such delusions on here where newer, more impressionable beginner shooters could actually get the impression it might be a good idea

Maybe you should go back and read the OP. The question relates to a clear terrorist attack, not your idea of "some unrealistic self defense scenario."

If you disagree with those who advocate for the ballistics and practicality of 5.7 in a terrorist attack, so be it. But the original post poses a reasonable (beginner) question (for someone unfamiliar with the 5.7).

 

[TruthTellers]

I don't see much of what the 5.7 gives over what's already available for concealed carry. The 5.7 isn't supposed to be a concealed carry cartridge; it was meant to be used by police, security, and special forces to increase accuracy and have some capability of beating body armor.

If I have a situation where someone is wearing body armor, from the 5" barrel of an FN Five Seven I don't know if that will give it enough speed to punch through armor and I really can't prepare for EDC for multiple combatants wearing body armor as that's not an situation that calls for a concealed carry person to stop them, that calls for SWAT to engage them. Even if there's only one shooter wearing body armor, I'll just aim for their head with what I have.

If it's multiple attackers, I don't see what an extra six or twelve rounds is gonna do me because the purpose of every defensive gun use is to protect yourself, not stop a platoon. Having said that, the best way to keep the carnage of these mass shootings is to have armed people already there when the shooting begins. Ten people carrying a .38 snubbie loaded with 5 rounds for a total of 50 shots is better than one person with a Five Seven loaded with 30 rounds and an extra mag for a total of 60 shots.

Basically, if I go to the dance hall to "shake my groove thang" it's better I buy a small gun I'll have with me than something large I'll leave at home.

 

[2ndunamended]

Ten people carrying a .38 snubbie loaded with 5 rounds for a total of 50 shots is better than one person with a Five Seven loaded with 30 rounds and an extra mag for a total of 60 shots.

Very nicely stated.

This thread, which I started, has convinced me of one thing- 9mm in my carry choice of a G17 (or G26 depending upon my attire) is the right (and smart) choice for me. Now, it's my responsibility to incorporate the original scenario (Paris type of attack) into my training, so I would be prepared to be most effective with my 9mm.

 

[barnbwt]

Okay, Justin22885, why do you think NATO went to the trouble of having FNH/etc produce the thing (and nearly accept it for service since it met the requirements)? I take it none of the stated advantages of the concept (stated ad infinitum in the thread already) carry over to civilian uses against a terrorist attack, even though the pistol was specifically designed as a non-combat personnel's defensive aid against sudden, unprovoked attack by rifle-wielding regulars wearing body armor in the rear echelon?

Sounds like it was specifically designed for exactly that kind of scenario, you just disagree with how they went about accomplishing it. Also, there is the obvious issue of ammunition selection, which uniquely makes a lot more difference here than is typical, and which is artificially made more difficult due to politics. Seeing as suitable ammo is available but somewhat expensive, and a whole range of practice stuff available at more reasonable price (and still generally sufficient as a defrnsive round) I would argue the issue is not insurmountable, meanwhile the pistol seems very well suited to the task at hand.


Now, make that task something "realistic," like concealed carry, or politically correct defensive tool, or bowling pin competition gun, and it is less suited. But that is not the OP's question.

TCB

 

[Shawn Dodson]

5.7x28 has been dumped by agency after agency because it doesn't quickly stop bad guys, even when they're hosed down by a P90.

It produces virtually the same wound trauma (physical tissue damage) as a .22 Magnum rifle. A modern 9mm jhp cartridge that meets FBI performance criteria produces more tissue damage than the 5.7.

Ft. Hood victims weren't determined, drugged-up terrorists.

 

[justin22885]

Okay, Justin22885, why do you think NATO went to the trouble of having FNH/etc produce the thing (and nearly accept it for service since it met the requirements)? I take it none of the stated advantages of the concept (stated ad infinitum in the thread already) carry over to civilian uses against a terrorist attack, even though the pistol was specifically designed as a non-combat personnel's defensive aid against sudden, unprovoked attack by rifle-wielding regulars wearing body armor in the rear echelon?

Sounds like it was specifically designed for exactly that kind of scenario, you just disagree with how they went about accomplishing it. Also, there is the obvious issue of ammunition selection, which uniquely makes a lot more difference here than is typical, and which is artificially made more difficult due to politics. Seeing as suitable ammo is available but somewhat expensive, and a whole range of practice stuff available at more reasonable price (and still generally sufficient as a defrnsive round) I would argue the issue is not insurmountable, meanwhile the pistol seems very well suited to the task at hand.


Now, make that task something "realistic," like concealed carry, or politically correct defensive tool, or bowling pin competition gun, and it is less suited. But that is not the OP's question.

TCB

nato also intends it to fire steel core armor piercing ammunition at a really high rate of fire out of a 10 inch barrel equipped with 50 round mags.. as a civilian youre getting a 20 round mag, no armor piercing ammo, semi automatic only rate of fire, less than half the barrel length and nearly half the muzzle energy

what military gets out of this caliber with AP ammo in a full auto P90 is an incredibly far cry from anything youre ever going to get out of a five seven, this was designed to be a pdw/submachine gun cartridge, not a self defensive handgun round.. i think those of you obsessing over this cartridge are clearly mistaken its performance out of a carbine length barrel and assuming youre going to get that out of a pistol..

and lets be very clear, this cartridge was designed purely as a vessel to transport a steel penetrator core through soft body armor.. without that its like shooting a shotgun wad with no shots in it

 

[Zerodefect]

5.7x28 has been dumped by agency after agency because it doesn't quickly stop bad guys, even when they're hosed down by a P90.

It produces virtually the same wound trauma (physical tissue damage) as a .22 Magnum rifle. A modern 9mm jhp cartridge that meets FBI performance criteria produces more tissue damage than the 5.7.

Ft. Hood victims weren't determined, drugged-up terrorists.

You've never even tested one, have you? Doesn't matter if they weren't Terrorists, or on drugs, when a round goes through your heart, you die. And plenty of good people died that day.







My PS90 walked all over my 9mm pistol carbines, like the HK MP5. The round is only a safer kevlar piercing version of 9mm. It was never meant to be a 10mm pistol or a 5.56 carbine. Some of ya'll seem to have unrealistic expectations.

If anyone can handload ammo that gives PS90 #'s, out of a Five Seven pistol, I wouldn't want to get shot by such.

 

[eldon519]

I guess if I were absolutely preoccupied with long distance engagement, I'd give the 357 Sig a hard look. Or if you were going to carry a larger pistol, maybe a G20/29 converted to 9x25 Dillon. Since you never really can plan ahead for a terrorist attack, I would have to choose an option that works day-to-day, and I would never limit myself to a niche round like 5.7.

 

[usp9]

...this was designed to be a pdw/submachine gun cartridge, not a self defensive handgun round

Hmmmm...??

Here's a video that makes me wonder why anyone would think the round is ineffective. Looks like it would hurt, at least to me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Opphm-17JfA

And for those with the desire for a fun switch...
"Hell Yeah!!"
Please disregard the silly stuff... you'll see...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbk7UqLiOFM

 

[kBob]

This discussion always makes me wonder if the Colt .22 SCAMP cartridge might not have been a good thing even if the early '70s USA and USAF were not impressed.

40 grain bullet at 2100 fps and the SCAMP had a 27 round magazine.

-kBob

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

a leg shot is just a leg shot?.. do you have any idea what happens to the leg that is shot when a larger caliber bullet smashes through the femur like a sledgehammer?... no matter how many drugs theyre on they simply would no longer be capable of walking or running.. a leg shot isnt always just a leg shot

I see you didn't notice that the responding officer in the Fort hood shooting had her femur shattered by this round.

Basically all this thread is 'It's tiny so it's weak and useless', and actual evidence being used to defend this round.

 

[barnbwt]

The SCAMP failed for a few reasons as I see it;
-Colt has the Brown Touch (as opposed to the Midas Touch) when it comes to internal R&D and marketing
-The gun really was exceptionally ugly, even by 70's standards (see previous)
-The gun was hampered by the obsession with multiple-projectile-salvos permeating small arms design at the time (it was not 27 shot so much as 9 shots of three bullets)
-Like the 22TCM, it appears the bullet was rather blunt and stubby, so its terminal ballistics may not have been much better than similar-shaped 30 Carbine slugs
-This was the era of Cooper and Gunsite Academy, and no small-bore anything was in favor (this was fresh-fresh-fresh on the heels of the M16 fiasco, and before good small-bore expanding/dynamic rounds were prevalent IIRC)
-Rather complicated and composed of unproven elements (something the military has no compunctions living with in rifles, but cannot abide in pistols that hardly ever get used, for some reason)

I agree a 5.7x28 cartridge based on 30 Carbine or 22 Hornet case head brass would be more impressive at a very modest tradeoff to capacity. What is most interesting about the SCAMP, is that it gets as good or better performance than 5.7x28 or 4.6x30 despite a smaller internal case volume, what does that say about the 5.7's likely potential from a locked breech arm?

The other key ingredient of the SCAMP was a rather expensive locked-breech action using a tilting bolt (most likely not-unlike the R51 internals, just made right and with a frame-mounted camming surface) using recoil operation. For both the 5.7 and 4.6, the makers determined recoil operation was untenable. FNH found the 5.7 did not offer enough recoil to cycle the pistol reliably/safely under the overall weight restrictions given, and HK never even got their delayed-blowback UCP past prototype phase, IIRC due to safety issues with their even-hotter ammo (although the compact size of the MP7 apparently convinced them they could simply ignore that half of the contract when presenting to NATO, or crying foul at FNH's incipient victory)

I'd still love to see a postie five-seven in action, since I bet it'd clean the G18's clock in every measure (provided a rate reducer can tame the +1500rpm cyclic speed), not that that is a very high bar --it's a fun one, though!

TCB

 

[Shawn Dodson]

You've never even tested one, have you? Doesn't matter if they weren't Terrorists, or on drugs, when a round goes through your heart, you die. And plenty of good people died that day.

No. I'm very much aware of officer involved shootings in which 5.7 performed very poorly against actual human assailants. Photos of dead animals shot by 5.7 are not indicative of the 5.7's ability to produce rapid incapacitation - it is simply evidence of its ability to produce as wound that is eventually fatal.

I don't know of many people who advocate a .22 Magnum rifle as ideal for self-defense, which is what 5.7 from an FN Five-seveN pistol emulates.

I see you didn't notice that the responding officer in the Fort hood shooting had her femur shattered by this round.

But she wasn't incapacitated by the wound and rendered incapable of acting with volition, was she?

 

[eldon519]

Why in the world would you want a round based off a .22 Hornet casehead for this role? What advantage would that offer?