6.5 Creed for Elk?

[HowieG]

Mine's being renovated now, new barrel and manners stock, should come in at just about 7lbs full up. I upped the barrel profile a little, then had it fluted. The factory M7 barrel fouled pretty bad, shot sub MOA, but went to crap in about 15rds. I loved practicing with it, but hated cleaning the ^&% thing. It now wears a 20" PacNor supermatch 3 groove in 1:8. Right now it's at the smiths for bedding.

I was 1/11 in Fulda 87-90: Basic branch Field Artillery. Company FSO, Recon Survey Officer and platoon LDR.

I was 3/33rd Armor at the Rock, Kirch Goens. About ten years before you. 75-79. M60A2 crew and Company Ops NCO. Our sector was Bad Hersfeld.

 

[JFrank]

We drove up to all four of them.

Even better.

 

[Weflyfast]

Well I'll chime in- I'm not a 6.5 CM basher I own two....however.....there are sooooo many better choices in my option for elk- I lived for a while in Wyoming and hunted there and Colorado for elk and I like a Magnum that will reach out and hit a little harder- personally my fav is the 8mmMag- ......but only if you shoot a Magnum well..... a 140gr. 6.5 bullet in the lungs is always better than a 270 gr.375 H&H in the ass....

 

[HowieG]

Well I'll chime in- I'm not a 6.5 CM basher I own two....however.....there are sooooo many better choices in my option for elk- I lived for a while in Wyoming and hunted there and Colorado for elk and I like a Magnum that will reach out and hit a little harder- personally my fav is the 8mmMag- ......but only if you shoot a Magnum well..... a 140gr. 6.5 bullet in the lungs is always better than a 270 gr.375 H&H in the ass....

It is very possible that modern rifles and optics have made us less adept as hunters. We don't seem to be able to stalk close anymore. Actually, we are trying real hard not to stalk within 1000 yards apparently.

 

[Peakbagger46]

The 6.5 CM shoots the same bullet weights as 270 (6.8mm) about 150-200 fps slower at the muzzle. But the better aerodynamics of the 6.5 bullets mean it will be impacting at the same speeds, or faster than a 270 at some point beyond 200 yards. It will penetrate a little deeper than 270 assuming the same bullet construction due to the better sectional densities.

In a nutshell a 140 gr 6.5 bullet does pretty much anything a 150 gr 270 bullet does on game. And a 150 gr 270 bullet is considered more than adequate for elk, moose or bear.

The 6.5CM is the smallest cartridge I'd feel comfortable using for game larger than deer, but I'd use it on any animal in the lower 48.

The little 6.5 isn’t a .270 at typical hunting ranges due to lack of powder capacity. Given a choice, I’d take a 30-06 180g for elk. I live and hunt in elk county and the 6.5 creedmore isn’t anywhere close to what folks around here prefer.

 

[Chuck R.]

It is very possible that modern rifles and optics have made us less adept as hunters. We don't seem to be able to stalk close anymore. Actually, we are trying real hard not to stalk within 1000 yards apparently.

You may find this article interesting, it pretty much some up why I won't shoot past 5oo (actually considerably less on game) :

Timing is Everything
How long does it take a deer or elk to step forward or turn 90-degrees? A half second? Easily. And how long does it take a high-speed, high-B.C. bullet to leap from muzzle to 1,000 yards? Well, let’s check it out… One of my favorites, a 168-grain Nosler AccuBond Long Range, B.C. .616, launched at 3,040 fps from my Borden Timberline 7mm Rem. Mag. sails along for 1.3 seconds before reaching 1,000 yards. A pleasant, 10 mph, right-angle breeze would redirect that bullet 5 feet off point-of-aim. A good judge of wind with a Kestrel wind meter could compensate for that, but no one can compensate for an animal that moves. One step, one turn can easily change a heart shot into a gut shot, a broadside lung shot into a “Texas heart shot.”

https://www.ronspomeroutdoors.com/blog/stop-long-range-hunting

 

[HowieG]

You may find this article interesting, it pretty much some up why I won't shoot past 5oo (actually considerably less on game) :



https://www.ronspomeroutdoors.com/blog/stop-long-range-hunting

I agree wholeheartedly. A couple of other thoughts have occurred to me. Just because your Kestrel says the wind is blowing 10 mph where you are sitting doesn't mean that it is blowing the same speed, or direction, a kilometer away. Also, at a thousand, your bullet may be limping along just a bit higher than the speed of sound. It may actually require several hundred feet per second MORE velocity to reliably expand, so killing ability could be substantially compromised.

I think it might be a good idea to go by the foot pound rules when hunting, even if you don't normally pay attention to energy figures. If you hold to the 1000 ft lbs at impact for deer, and 1500 ft lbs at impact for elk, that will set your effective range for you. Practice stalking into whatever range that is.

 

[Zak Smith]

re: RSO,

LR shooting dilettante says nobody should shoot longer than he can.

His information on LR shooting has always been iffy at best, downright misinformation other times.

 

[Chuck R.]

re: RSO,

LR shooting dilettante says nobody should shoot longer than he can.

His information on LR shooting has always been iffy at best, downright misinformation other times.

Regardless, IMHO he makes a valid point in regard to time of flight combined with reaction time and an animals potential movement, just as HowieG's point is valid concerning wind at firing point, vs tgt line.

Or do you disagree with those also?

 

[Chuck R.]

I agree wholeheartedly. A couple of other thoughts have occurred to me. Just because your Kestrel says the wind is blowing 10 mph where you are sitting doesn't mean that it is blowing the same speed, or direction, a kilometer away. Also, at a thousand, your bullet may be limping along just a bit higher than the speed of sound. It may actually require several hundred feet per second MORE velocity to reliably expand, so killing ability could be substantially compromised.

I think it might be a good idea to go by the foot pound rules when hunting, even if you don't normally pay attention to energy figures. If you hold to the 1000 ft lbs at impact for deer, and 1500 ft lbs at impact for elk, that will set your effective range for you. Practice stalking into whatever range that is.

We see it all the time in matches, when you have to learn which wind flag to watch for which bank of animals. It's not a constant, although generally the wind at the muzzle has the greatest impact on deflection. I've got steel off my back deck at 400 and 547, with an additional tgt berm that goes to 760. I have a pretty good idea at what distances I can make cold 1st round hits on a kill zone. Which is why I've set my personal limit at about 500. I have lots of shooters out that struggle to hit an 8" plate at 300.

 

[H&Hhunter]

We see it all the time in matches, when you have to learn which wind flag to watch for which bank of animals. It's not a constant, although generally the wind at the muzzle has the greatest impact on deflection. I've got steel off my back deck at 400 and 547, with an additional tgt berm that goes to 760. I have a pretty good idea at what distances I can make cold 1st round hits on a kill zone. Which is why I've set my personal limit at about 500. I have lots of shooters out that struggle to hit an 8" plate at 300.

Agreed and the big problem in the field is you don’t have wind flags. As my good buddy says in the field over broken terrain you don’t get to know what the wind is doing.

My max range varies with conditions.

 

[H&Hhunter]

BTW I’ve hunted with Ron Spoomer he’s one heck of a capable riflemen in the field.

 

[Chuck R.]

Agreed and the big problem in the field is you don’t have wind flags. As my good buddy says in the field over broken terrain you don’t get to know what the wind is doing.

My max range varies with conditions.

Excellent points!

BTW I’ve hunted with Ron Spoomer he’s one heck of a capable riflemen in the field.

I've always liked his blog posts and videos, he comes across as very level headed.

 

[HowieG]

We see it all the time in matches, when you have to learn which wind flag to watch for which bank of animals. It's not a constant, although generally the wind at the muzzle has the greatest impact on deflection. I've got steel off my back deck at 400 and 547, with an additional tgt berm that goes to 760. I have a pretty good idea at what distances I can make cold 1st round hits on a kill zone. Which is why I've set my personal limit at about 500. I have lots of shooters out that struggle to hit an 8" plate at 300.

You are a lucky man. I got challenged to shoot a 3/4 MOA group at 400 yards with a sporter weight 22-250. I spent yesterday afternoon out in the desert in the Jeep trying to find an area of terrain where I had 400 yards line of sight along with driving access to a shooting spot and a target frame spot. That turned out to be a pretty tough proposition. Central NM isn't Kansas.

If you don't use it, having On X on my phone is marvelous. Set up two waypoints, draw a straight line between the two and get the yardage automatically.

 

[HowieG]

Agreed and the big problem in the field is you don’t have wind flags. As my good buddy says in the field over broken terrain you don’t get to know what the wind is doing.

My max range varies with conditions.

No wind flags on hunts? We can't have that! Let's pass some legislation....

 

[Zak Smith]

Regardless, IMHO he makes a valid point in regard to time of flight combined with reaction time and an animals potential movement, just as HowieG's point is valid concerning wind at firing point, vs tgt line.

He didn't mention reaction time in that article, and TOF vs. target movement is a valid point. Wind judgement is part of LR shooting skill so that's encapsulated by my statement. Part of the skill involved is knowing how to ID conditions in which you can make the shot vs. not.

 

[HowieG]

He didn't mention reaction time in that article, and TOF vs. target movement is a valid point. Wind judgement is part of LR shooting skill so that's encapsulated by my statement. Part of the skill involved is knowing how to ID conditions in which you can make the shot vs. not.

The vast majority of ordinary hunters have no opportunity, time, or money to develop those hard-to-acquire LR skills. Nor do they actually have the need to do so. Instead, they are bombarded constantly with marketing about how the newest whizbang scope/cartridge/rifle combination will allow him to magically kill beasts on the other side of the planet.

 

[Chuck R.]

He didn't mention reaction time in that article, and TOF vs. target movement is a valid point. Wind judgement is part of LR shooting skill so that's encapsulated by my statement. Part of the skill involved is knowing how to ID conditions in which you can make the shot vs. not.

Zak, you're right, my error, he mentioned it here:

But let’s calm down and consider. Even if a well-trained and equipped long range shooter can hit more consistently at 1,000 yards than I can at 100, it’s still irresponsible to target game at such extreme range just because of time of flight. The 6.5 PRC sends a .625 B.C. bullet flying at 2,960 fps. It takes that bullet 1.46 seconds to reach 1,000 yards. Add a split second for the shooter’s brain to move the “shoot” signal from his brain to his finger, another split second for the trigger to break and hammer to fall, and we’re looking at a 1.5-, possibly 1.7-second delay.

https://www.ronspomeroutdoors.com/blog/why-long-range-shooting-is-a-good-thing

 

[BreechFace]

I know some PRS shooters where an 800 yard shot is a breeze, but we are talking about 1-2% of hunters probably shoot as much as they do.

I agree with @HowieG point on marketing telling run of the mill hunters they can make long shots on game if they just do x, y, and z., and none of those involves lots of trigger time.

But at the same point there are for sure excellent shooters out there that a 1,000 yard shot in conditions they recognize as favorable is not an issue. Is it how I approach hunting, no; but the point remains there are some incredible shooters out there who also happen to be hunters.

 

[Chuck R.]

You are a lucky man. I got challenged to shoot a 3/4 MOA group at 400 yards with a sporter weight 22-250. I spent yesterday afternoon out in the desert in the Jeep trying to find an area of terrain where I had 400 yards line of sight along with driving access to a shooting spot and a target frame spot. That turned out to be a pretty tough proposition. Central NM isn't Kansas.

If you don't use it, having On X on my phone is marvelous. Set up two waypoints, draw a straight line between the two and get the yardage automatically.

More than you know, I'm in the "mountainous" part of KS (we're also in color here)

It took a couple years to find a suitable piece of property for a range. Flat isn't really flat, when viewed from a bipod...

 

[BreechFace]

More than you know, I'm in the "mountainous" part of KS (we're also in color here)

It took a couple years to find a suitable piece of property for a range. Flat isn't really flat, when viewed from a bipod...

How are the chiggers? Nasty little buggers.

 

[Chuck R.]

How are the chiggers? Nasty little buggers.

They're the reason I "invented" the mobile shooting platform:




and as you know they suck slightly less than the ticks, only because the chiggers don't give you some type of long lasting ailment.

 

[BreechFace]

They're the reason I "invented" the mobile shooting platform:

View attachment 1050128
View attachment 1050129

and as you know they suck slightly less than the ticks, only because the chiggers don't give you some type of long last ailment.

That trailer is awesome and a great idea, just run the tongue up and down for elevation adjustment . I could see myself doing something like that if I lived in chigger country.

Your poor spotter though, I noticed his spotted red chigger infested ankles are out of frame of the picture.

 

[Chuck R.]

That trailer is awesome and a great idea, just run the tongue up and down for elevation adjustment . I could see myself doing something like that if I lived in chigger country.

Your poor spotter though, I noticed his spotted red chigger infested ankles are out of frame of the picture.

That's Al, he's OK we dip him in Deet prior to practicing....

 

[HowieG]

That's Al, he's OK we dip him in Deet prior to practicing....

He's not the whitest person I've ever seen, but he is way up there. Must sunburn on a cloudy day. Like my redheaded wife.