6.8x51/.277 Fury?

[halfmoonclip]

The November 22 NRA Shooting Illustrated has an article ("Determining the Drift", p 30) about a proposed service cartridge with more range and hitting power than the 5.56, styled the 6.8x51. Its claimed to have 2,830'sec with a 150 grain bullet. That sounded familiar, and a quick check of .308 ballistics shows any number of loads in that general vicinity.
The new round achieves that speed in a 16" barrel, though requiring an eye watering 80,000 psi to get there. The .308 needs a longer barrel for its numbers.
This feels like reinventing the wheel. We fired the M14 for familiarization in the long ago days when I wore a uniform. That arm was foisted on the army by the brown boot guys, who really wanted a box magazine Garand, instead of a Sturmgewehr 44 sort of intermediate rifle/cartridge, or even a modern .30 like the FAL. The '14 weighs10lbs, and our instructors told us we weren't apt to see one with its selector switch in place.
Now we're considering a 16" carbine, weight unknown, but certainly less than an M14? That 80,000 psi should launch a bullet rather abruptly, with equal and opposite recoil. The proposed cartridge is a hybrid steel/brass casing(costing $4 @) to contain that pressure, and rapid wear of components is a concern.
The picture I'm seeing is .308 ballistics in a lightweight carbine, firing expensive, hard kicking ammunition. Select fire??? This, now to be issued to women, as well as men?
What in hell is wrong with this picture?
Moon

 

[The_Quartermaster]

You're talking about the XM5, old news really depending on where one sits on the information chain POV.

Our generals were worried about Russian helmets and body armor for possible near peer fight. It's what they do after every campaign, they go back to near peer and try to forget everything that was learned. But for this subject's sake, after we found out that Russian troop armor is trashed up hype that even our own issued ammunition can pass through in Ukraine, it's been put on the backburner for now.





https://www.youtube.com/shorts/xuXVcVRbdE4

 

[upptick]

You're talking about the XM5, old news really depending on where one sits on the information chain POV.

Our generals were worried about Russian helmets and body armor for possible near peer fight. It's what they do after every campaign, they go back to near peer and try to forget everything that was learned. But for this subject's sake, after we found out that Russian troop armor is trashed up hype that even our own issued ammunition can pass through in Ukraine, it's been put on the backburner for now.

Wait, the XM5 has been put on hold? That sounds entirely too rational....

 

[1KPerDay]

…..

 

[robin banks]

You're talking about the XM5, old news really depending on where one sits on the information chain POV.

Our generals were worried about Russian helmets and body armor for possible near peer fight. It's what they do after every campaign, they go back to near peer and try to forget everything that was learned. But for this subject's sake, after we found out that Russian troop armor is trashed up hype that even our own issued ammunition can pass through in Ukraine, it's been put on the backburner for now.





https://www.youtube.com/shorts/xuXVcVRbdE4

look at all the garbage the guy has on that rifle the second video down. the goal is to outfit each grunt with 180K worth of gear. the disregard for money by the govt is sickening along with 30 trillion in debt

 

[halfmoonclip]

This article was my first exposure to it; glad cooler heads have prevailed.
Nice observation about Russian body armor and equipment; whatever they are using, the Ukrainians aren't having a problem with it.
The notion of 'full powered battle rifle' and 'light weight' are mutually exclusive, until Han Solo's blaster becomes viable.
Thanks, guys.
Moon

 

[The_Quartermaster]

look at all the garbage the guy has on that rifle the second video down. the goal is to outfit each grunt with 180K worth of gear. the disregard for money by the govt is sickening along with 30 trillion in debt

Can you point out to me which you think is garbage so I can understand why you think so and maybe help answer why it's even there to begin with? The shooter in the second video was an active duty USAF TACP officer at the time that video was being made and then released.

 

[valnar]

Just on principle I'm not a fan of the .277 Fury, at least for my use if it's ever offered. It's undoubtedly going to be a barrel burner with that PSI. I like more efficient cartridges, even if it results in slower speeds.

 

[N555]

All I know is I want that hybrid brass.
I would like to do a trailer park xm5 that uses 6.8x51 necked down to 6.5 and ran in a proper 260rem chambered AR10 rifle with a few mods so the gas system doesn't tear it's self apart.

 

[mcb]

Just on principle I'm not a fan of the .277 Fury, at least for my use if it's ever offered. It's undoubtedly going to be a barrel burner with that PSI. I like more efficient cartridges, even if it results in slower speeds.

At those pressures it probably is an extremely efficient cartridge if by efficiency we are talking about the percentage of chemical energy turned into kinetic energy of the bullet. That said that type of efficiency is rarely a big factor to most shooters.

 

[halfmoonclip]

Valnar, the .277 does sound like running WFO to gain a slight increase in muzzle velocity, and an enormous increase in operating pressure. That is a puzzler.
Watched the upper video at full length, and an AR10-like in .308, perhaps that makes more sense. Left unmentioned is the weight of the rifle; it appears to bounce around a little in that caliber. I may be connecting facts not in evidence, but the Fury's recoil looks noticeably sharper.
The proposed squad auto was interesting; it appeared to be short recoil, rather than gas operated.
The left side charging handle seems a great idea; the current charging handle leaves no easy ingress for dirt, but it can't be easily used while the rifle is on the shoulder.
Personally, I'm a SOF (that's skinny old fart.... ), and don't expect to replace my 5.56 ARs. But this is an interesting conversation.
Moon

 

[robin banks]

Can you point out to me which you think is garbage so I can understand why you think so and maybe help answer why it's even there to begin with? The shooter in the second video was an active duty USAF TACP officer at the time that video was being made and then released.

I dont care what he was. he is now a prostitute pimped out to eotech etc and a professional ammo waster. off camera he probably aint a bad guy. if you cant figure out what is NOT needed on that rifle take up golf. that thing must weigh 11 lbs

 

[mcb]

I dont care what he was. he is now a prostitute pimped out to eotech etc and a professional ammo waster. off camera he probably aint a bad guy. if you cant figure out what is NOT needed on that rifle take up golf. that thing must weigh 11 lbs

You do realize most of the accessories he has on his rifle are already being used on the M4 depending on mission. Eotechs are/were issued to some troops along with magnifiers. The IR visible laser aiming system on top is commonly use with NVGs and a white light mounted on the rifle also is not unreasonable. I am pretty sure you could find picture of US troops in various theaters of operation with M4 configure very similar to the one is that video.

Have you seen the new optic (XM157) that is slated to go on the XM5 assuming it loses the X and becomes a fielded system. Its going to be a ~$5k aiming system.


From the same "professional ammo waster"

 

[The_Quartermaster]

I dont care what he was. he is now a prostitute pimped out to eotech etc and a professional ammo waster. off camera he probably aint a bad guy. if you cant figure out what is NOT needed on that rifle take up golf. that thing must weigh 11 lbs

So this is more of "I don't like what's on there" and not trying to understand mission essential equipment? Lima charlie, friend. That's the kind of thinking that would have had us still stuck with useless PASGT, no M4's, zero RFI, and the same trash seatbelts that soldiers could not egress out of while being burned alive.

You must be a great golfer then, because you don't understand what you trying to be edgy about, so you may as well play putt-putt instead.

 

[CapnMac]

Basically, there's only a squidge of difference between 7.62x51nato and the new 6.8x51.
We will have to see what commercial .277furry is actually put put for sale. The military training ammo is roughly equal to 7.62x39 in performance.

If any military 6.8x51winds up out in the commercial world, it will be FMJ like as not.

The ammo was designed around the specifications of the proposed "new" Squad Automatic Weapon (SAW). To "sweeten the pot" General Dynamics also ginned up a proposed "M5" carbine to use the new round, too, but, that carbine has a circa 13" barrel dimension, so, it's not going to get that quoted 1000m performance. (And, just who is going to be engaging targets at 1 kilometer with rifle fire has never been defined.)

All this folderol far too closely resembles the Zummwalt debacle, where the super-duper rounds for the proposed railguns on the ships were "affordable" only if all 30 ships were built. Now that the build is reduced to only 5-6 ships, the cost per round went way past a million per each. Which helped cancel the problem-riddled railgun project, too

M-250 will likely wind up as a Special Operations item, perhaps with a few hundred M-5, which the current proposed build of 1100 to 1500 weapons will easily cover.

 

[citizenconn]

I would like to be a professional ammo waster when I retire from the Houston area of operations in 4 years (assuming I make it out alive). I am willing to attach whatever doodads prospective employers may want to my pew-pew if that helps. IM me with job opportunities.

 

[The_Quartermaster]

Basically, there's only a squidge of difference between 7.62x51nato and the new 6.8x51.
We will have to see what commercial .277furry is actually put put for sale. The military training ammo is roughly equal to 7.62x39 in performance.

If any military 6.8x51winds up out in the commercial world, it will be FMJ like as not.

The ammo was designed around the specifications of the proposed "new" Squad Automatic Weapon (SAW). To "sweeten the pot" General Dynamics also ginned up a proposed "M5" carbine to use the new round, too, but, that carbine has a circa 13" barrel dimension, so, it's not going to get that quoted 1000m performance. (And, just who is going to be engaging targets at 1 kilometer with rifle fire has never been defined.)

All this folderol far too closely resembles the Zummwalt debacle, where the super-duper rounds for the proposed railguns on the ships were "affordable" only if all 30 ships were built. Now that the build is reduced to only 5-6 ships, the cost per round went way past a million per each. Which helped cancel the problem-riddled railgun project, too

M-250 will likely wind up as a Special Operations item, perhaps with a few hundred M-5, which the current proposed build of 1100 to 1500 weapons will easily cover.

The US Army didn't want the M5. A 4 star who would never have to carry let alone shoot one, wanted it. The same one who was an Obama approved general who also is a fan of social justice and training to time, feelings, but not to standards.

The Sig Spear in 5.56 made specifically for M855A1, would have been the better choice.

 

[mcb]

It seem like a lot of guys that have served and seen combat seem to agree the XM5 is a poor replacement for the M4 for the common big Army solder but that the XM5 with the XM157 sighting system certainly has possibilities with more specialized small units. It seems like the XM5 & XM157 combination would make a great designated marksman rifle.

 

[The_Quartermaster]

It seem like a lot of guys that have served and seen combat seem to agree the XM5 is a poor replacement for the M4 for the common big Army solder but that the XM5 with the XM157 sighting system certainly has possibilities with more specialized small units. It seems like the XM5 & XM157 combination would make a great designated marksman rifle.

The 6mm ARC would have been the best options if they just had to have a new caliber. Actually the 6mm ARC is a really great choice (I don't care about your feelings 6.5 G boys, this is about what the Army really wanted without Miley mucking it up that DoD asked Hornady to make for them, and not about your pride, ego, fan crush for 6.5 G, and other nonsensical whining's) because it gives more range but can still be used within the short frames.

 

[CapnMac]

It seems like the XM5 & XM157 combination would make a great designated marksman rifle.

Maybe, but that short barrel could be a limitation. Maybe with a 16" or 18" barrel, and not with a 1 KG "scope" installed. Not when a half-pound LVPO would better suit the DMR role. The serious long-range sniper role is probably still served with .338 and the like.

 

[robin banks]

Basically, there's only a squidge of difference between 7.62x51nato and the new 6.8x51.
We will have to see what commercial .277furry is actually put put for sale. The military training ammo is roughly equal to 7.62x39 in performance.

If any military 6.8x51winds up out in the commercial world, it will be FMJ like as not.

The ammo was designed around the specifications of the proposed "new" Squad Automatic Weapon (SAW). To "sweeten the pot" General Dynamics also ginned up a proposed "M5" carbine to use the new round, too, but, that carbine has a circa 13" barrel dimension, so, it's not going to get that quoted 1000m performance. (And, just who is going to be engaging targets at 1 kilometer with rifle fire has never been defined.)

All this folderol far too closely resembles the Zummwalt debacle, where the super-duper rounds for the proposed railguns on the ships were "affordable" only if all 30 ships were built. Now that the build is reduced to only 5-6 ships, the cost per round went way past a million per each. Which helped cancel the problem-riddled railgun project, too

M-250 will likely wind up as a Special Operations item, perhaps with a few hundred M-5, which the current proposed build of 1100 to 1500 weapons will easily cover.

quartermaster would tell you if it wasnt for the tons on money wasted on the zummwalt disaster the US navy would still have wooden ships with sails

 

[robin banks]

I would like to be a professional ammo waster when I retire from the Houston area of operations in 4 years (assuming I make it out alive). I am willing to attach whatever doodads prospective employers may want to my pew-pew if that helps. IM me with job opportunities.

who declared war on Houston?

 

[robin banks]

So this is more of "I don't like what's on there" and not trying to understand mission essential equipment? Lima charlie, friend. That's the kind of thinking that would have had us still stuck with useless PASGT, no M4's, zero RFI, and the same trash seatbelts that soldiers could not egress out of while being burned alive.

You must be a great golfer then, because you don't understand what you trying to be edgy about, so you may as well play putt-putt instead.

so all of that stuff on that rifle is needed to fight goatherders?

 

[Robert]

I dont care what he was. he is now a prostitute pimped out to eotech etc and a professional ammo waster. off camera he probably aint a bad guy. if you cant figure out what is NOT needed on that rifle take up golf. that thing must weigh 11 lbs

No by all means, critique an actual special operations guy that puts himself out there to educate folks. What's your contribution again?

 

[The_Quartermaster]

quartermaster would tell you if it wasnt for the tons on money wasted on the zummwalt disaster the US navy would still have wooden ships with sails

You are using a fallacy argument, and myself not being Navy but listening to what he is saying I would agree with him based on his SME and the fact that knowing how the system works translates well to the other services within the DoD.