"60 Minutes" tonight (Glock might not be our friend)

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My response to Glock.

After seeing and reading through comments and statements on many firearms forums, I had come to the conclusion that Glock's stated corporate polices are not in my best interests as a law-abiding American.

The final straw came in the form of this statement issued on the GSSF website www.gssfonline.com/2002/hot_topics/glockofficialstatement.htm

GLOCK IS NOT keeping a database on ballistic fingerprint of GLOCK pistols being shipped and neither are we giving anyone else data to retain. We are not collecting any data that could be put into a database. The questions about ballistic fingerprinting were conceptual in nature as the technology is yet to be proven.

Yes, GLOCK is capturing shell casings at the time of test firing. For a firearm to be shipped to either Maryland or New York it must be accompanied by shell casings. Otherwise, law abiding citizens in Maryland and New York could not purchase handguns of any sort.

Since GLOCK may be the only handgun manufacturer that test fires every single weapon it ships, we capture shell casings from each pistol and put them in a manila envelope. Nothing further is done with the shell casings. No ballistic fingerprint is taken, no data is collected and, therefore, no data is or can be stored.
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Contrast Glock's official statement with the following:
www.atf.treas.gov/press/speech/fy00/040700ggdsymposium.htm

ATF is now making this computer technology available to police authorities around the country through the National Integrated Ballistics Identification Network (NIBIN). This network is a joint effort between ATF and the FBI to provide the latest technology to our state and local partners. Under this arrangement ATF will be responsible for the ballistics technology and the FBI will provide the computer network that will join the state and local systems together. Currently this provides a valuable tool for law enforcement authorities that will allow us to associate a suspect or a firearm with seemingly unrelated crimes. The future of this technology offers even greater potential. ATF is currently conducting a pilot project with Glock, wherein they will capture digital image a test fire shell casing for handgun they manufacture. That image will be associated with the serial number of the firearm in a computer database. Later if a shell casing is recovered at a crime scene it could be compared against the Glock database. This comparison could lead to the identification of the exact weapon that fired the round. Without ever recovering a firearm ATF could then trace the weapon used in the crime.
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mlis.state.md.us/2000rs/fnotes/bil_0001/sb0211.rtf

In December 1999, the U.S. Treasury Department's Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco, and Firearms (ATF) and the FBI signed a Memorandum of Understanding that requires the two agencies to work cooperatively by taking advantage of the strengths of ATF's Integrated Ballistics Information System (IBIS) and the FBI's DRUGFIRE system to create one Nationwide Integrated Ballistics Information Network (NIBIN). The ATF will have overall responsibility for all current and future system sites and the FBI will establish and maintain a high-speed, secure communication network. The Glock manufacturing company has agreed to submit ballistics data on all handguns made at their plants to NIBIN.
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It would seem that Glock has in the past submitted ballistics data to government agencies. My suspicions would lead me to consider that you still are.

I would gather from this information that Glock already has established technologies and protocols to implement a ballistics database with the knowledge and participation of the federal government. The "60 Minutes" report was only letting the cat out of the bag.

I will never consider purchase of a Glock product unless and until a full public retraction of your untenable position is made. I will actively discourage anyone I meet with an interest in firearms from purchasing a Glock product.
 
"Since GLOCK may be the only handgun manufacturer that test fires every single weapon it ships, we capture shell casings from each pistol and put them in a manila envelope. Nothing further is done with the shell casings. No ballistic fingerprint is taken, no data is collected and, therefore, no data is or can be stored."

Bullsh*t!:cuss:
Why are they spending money to store all these hundred of thousands of shell casings unless they have a further use for them.
 
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YOUR TAX DOLLARS HARD AT WORK!
I cannot imagine the cost of implementing this new data base and the cost of employing all the new staff for the FBI & ATBF
and even at Glock but I am certain who is paying for it and my tax dollars are once again being used for something I am in total disagreement of.
What I find most upsetting is the results on election eve when I realize many of the same voices heard here today, voted the idiots who sponsor these assinine bills into office.
Just consider where we would be today if Gore was in the WH and then remember, HE GOT AT LEAST 50% of the votes.
We will never get our message accross when at least half of our friends and loved ones are voting against us.
 
Gads! it worked when I posted it. Blasted government computers!!

Go to http://thomas.loc.gov and type in S. 22 in the search box. Scroll down (about 3/4's of the way) till you find Part 2 of the included "Our Lady of the Peace Act"
 
This isn't court. I can judge for myself. Only an idiot can't see what's happening here. It appears likely that Glock is already coughing up the fired cases of every gun it has sold (with the possible exception of LE sales, but I wouldn't bet on that, either). After all, what's the point of giving the Feds 50 cases, or a 100? Half a hog ain't a hog. They are not on our side since that started, if they ever were.

IF I owned a Glock, (which I don't), it would be sold tomorrow, if not already. You poor suckers who bought them will have to decide for yourselves. I've got nothing to lose, as I only owned a G19 for about a month, and got rid of it. I never cared for Glocks, and never really understood what people see in them. I'm not particularly biased against the guns, I just don't like them. That's a personal preference. Given Glocks actions of late, not just the BF stuff, I think that just this once, I've made the right choice in not buying another one.

The thing that worries me, is, how many other manufacturer's are or have been doing the same, and haven't been stupid enough to puke it to 60 Minutes, or someone else?

What better way for the anti's to get what they want, than by coercing and co-opting the gun manufacturers?

Someone asked where the line was. Well, it's drawn every day. It's here, it's now, and the fight has been on for many years. We are losing. Slowly, to be sure, but losing nonetheless. Every year, more laws are passed that restrict what rights we have left. We whine, we commiserate with those who live in locations with laws more onerous than ours, we write e-mails, letters, and send money to the NRA, GOA, etc. And what happens? More useless laws get passed that only we obey, albeit grudgingly. The crooks just laugh and go on doing whatever they please.

We settle for 'deals', and 'negotiation' for 'reasonable compromises' that let us keep what we have, while surrendering more for those that follow.

What are you going to do about it? Vote? Yeah, I vote. Maybe that forestalls the inevitable for a bit. But I'm realistic. I may never have to make the hard choice. Maybe someday, someone will. But that's the plan. A push here, a push there, and were off the cliff one day without even realizing it.

Like many have said before, how hot is the water? Is it boiling yet?
 
There is no way that the feds can make minor modifications to your gun illegal. My goodness, they are going to happen over time on their own due to wear and will be accelerated by a alck of maintenance. Take that line of thinking to its logical conclusion - are you telling me that the feds will be sending folks to prison because they did not properly clean their handgun, and therefore accelerated the rate of wear and consequent change in the ballistic signature?

For those of you who are so disgusted that you want to sell your Glcok, let me know and I will be glad to take it off your hands. Oh, and I know that you would be selling out of principle so price would not be a factor in your decision.
 
JeremyIA: MN STRELOK--How's the weather up in MN?
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Dunno, unfortunately I'm an Illinoisan. The MN in my id stands for Mosin-Nagant, but so far I'm 3 and 0 for people thinking it's Minnesota. ;)

JeremyIA: However, this is going to be a massive waste of taxpayer dollars that will lead to little if nothing with regards to solving gun murders.
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When it comes to the arguments for and against ballistic recognition, I think this is the most important point to remember. The best case result (solving more crimes that have already been committed) cannot possibly outweigh the probable financial costs and invasiveness of such a system.

4thHorseman: Why are they spending money to store all these hundred of thousands of shell casings unless they have a further use for them.
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It's my understanding that the casings go to the state if the weapon is sold in a place with "fingerprinting" laws. Everywhere else they just drop the casings in the box with the pistol.

Airwolf: It would seem that Glock has in the past submitted ballistics data to government agencies.
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That's some extremely interesting information. I notice they consistently use the future tense though (i.e. "they will capture" and "has agreed to submit"). That struck me as odd so I looked around for anything that would confirm such a program is ongoing. Here's what I found:

"Actually, Glock Inc. has been providing spent cases to the ATF in a test program since November 1999. But only cases. Now it appears that their program will become a permanent one." -- Joseph P. Tartaro, April 1, 2000 (http://www.gunweek.com/archives/2000/hs040100.html)

"In FY2000, Glock G.m.b.H. – a leading manufacturer of handguns – initiated a feasibility study to ballistically image newly manufactured handguns. Glock initiated this study because the firm viewed ballistics imaging as a more viable alternative than proposals being considered by the Clinton Administration to require that serial numbers be etched onto the inside areas of gun barrels, so that the serial numbers could not be obliterated. The imaging equipment and data rights being used in this study belong solely to Glock, and ATF does not have access to the images generated by this study." -- William C. Boesman and William J. Krouse, July 3, 2001 (http://shelby.senate.gov/legislation/leg_pdf/gun2.pdf)

"Firearm fingerprinting can be an invaluable tool to law enforcement since it can link together crimes that otherwise would be pursued as separate cases. An automated tracing system has been created (Integrated Ballistics Identification System) to implement this scheme... In addition to recording the markings from guns used in crimes, the system is designed to record markings from the test firing of every new gun. Currently, manufacturer participation is voluntary and only Glock USA, is contributing information to the database." -- Bartholomew Roberts, October 25, 2002 (http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_registration.html)
 
I didn't see this tidbit posted before so I thought I'd add it to the thread for completeness and to give us a more detailed historical record of these events.

A member of full-auto.com contacted Glock to find out what the deal *really* was.

full-auto.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=004307

I'm leaving the link cold since Full-Auto doesn't have our "standards of decorum" :D

I'm also editing this to stay within THR standards.

********

I have been very vocal (imagine that!) with all my friends, congresscritters, etc on my RKBA position, and I wont start laying low now.

I was fairly troubled after 60 minutes Sunday night. I did the Glocktalk thing, and was watching the thread. Mr [Jannuzzo] released a fax yesterday, which you can ready for yourself here.

After reading his position, I decided to call and leave him a goodbye message. Switchboard put me through to Legal, which told me to hold on. He, [Jannuzzo] answered.

We chatted for a few minutes, he was very aggressive/defensive from word one. After he saw I wasnt swayed by his attempt to rationalize his position, he said and I quote, "This whole thing was started by a bunch of Internet yay-hoos". I was thinking, who the **** is he calling a yay-hoo? He proceeded to imply 60 Minutes did a spin, which I dont doubt, but I aksed, If they spun you so bad, why did your fax not relay that thought, and why did it reenforce your position of pro BF?

He then told me,"You obviously havent been listening to a G** Damn word I have said. Click.

*********

That pretty well speaks for itself, does it not.

It would appear that Glock really doesn’t think much of a large portion of its customer base.

Well, THIS "Internet yay-hoo" will be doing his best to see your business pay the price for such misjudgment and unfathomable arrogance.
 
Airwolf, this interner yay-hoo is with you 100%.
Good job by the way in getting through to him. Thanks for reporting the Jannuzzo conversation to us.
 
The power of the internet. Yahoo's indeed!

I've followed this issue on the net. Spent time at GT today getting all caught up.

The information made available via the net to 'inform' us all and launch a grass roots movement to protect what little rights we still have on this issue is just awesome.

I caught wind of this monday. downloaded the 60 minute mpeg to judge for myself. posted my somewhat informed opinion, then followed more links on the net about BF and related items, all links gathered and posted by other members.

I think Glock has no clue, up until now, what firestorm they have unleased upon themselves with this, in such an incredible short time.

I think the VP of Glock and Glock are just now beginning to realize what is going on. We're are too well versed in seeing though spin-control, having lived with that from the Klinton administration for 8 years.

Keep Glock's feet to the fire I say! Glock managment are getting nervous. A frusturated VP just makes the point.
 
After reading his position, I decided to call and leave him a goodbye message. Switchboard put me through to Legal, which told me to hold on. He, [Jannuzzo] answered.
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I suppose it's possible that a Glock VP is answering angry phone calls, but I'm not sure we should be taking a full-auto.com post at face value.
 
I'm saying I have no idea who he is, and I'm not in the habit of believing every unsubstantiated thing I hear. If I did that I'd probably be anti-gun. ;)
 
thumbsup.gif
 
Just to be clear. I am only reporting the incident as posted on Full-Auto.com. I am not the one that made the call.

I share a certain amount of skepticism about the event as posted but we all know stranger things have happened.

Given how oblivious Glock has been from the start of this whole event and how out of touch they seem to be with their "civilian" customers, I have a gut level feeling that the conversation probably did take place much as stated.

I have also seen several postings from people that have claimed to have dealt directly with Mr. Jannuzzo. Most of the comments I’ve seen regarding this gentleman wouldn't clear the language filters here.

Taking all the information we are finding, I think the assessment that Glock has pretty well sold its corporate soul in order to obtain government contracts for its products seems to explain most, if not all their behavior.

The "Internet yay-hoo's" like us are not considered important to their business success.

I'd like to prove them wrong in the worst way.
 
Well, in his defense there is a lot of disinformation being thrown around on the Internet boards, including this one. There are still folks calling this registration, which it is not. There are still folks claiming that BF is a violation of our rights, and yet they fail to explain exactly how. We all agree it is a bad idea, but from my perspective it is because it simply won't work, it is a feel-good attempt at crime control. Most of reactions I have seen with their vitriolic comments and cries for boycotts are based purely on emotionalism. It makes us look like a bunch of soccer moms.
 
Yeah, read the comment from the forum moderator on Glocks forum. Denial is the first step in realization. Heck all the ideals were sold out from under them in a matte of minutes. 60 Minutes to be exact.
Those guys are devistated over there. :(
 
This makes me wonder if any other manufacturers have started to keep case ballistic prints. I guess I need to query them before I buy. We should keep tabs on them in a separate thread.

As in, "These manufacturer are known to keep ballistic fingerprints on new firearms they sell:

1. Glock
2. ..
3 ..

These manufacturers claim they do NOT keep ballistic fingerprints on new firearms they sell:

1. ..
2. ..
3. ..
 
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