"60 Minutes" tonight (Glock might not be our friend)

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I remember when shortly after the HUD S&W agreement was created, Paul Januzzo (Glock VP whose head is being called for by many today) wrote a very strong response AGAINST the S&W HUD agreement. There was a thread on Glock Talk singing praises for Januzzo and his stand. Now based on a sound bite on CBS the boycott cries are sounding again.

Let's take a look at what was said last night:

60 Minutes:
At the moment, manufacturers like the Glock company in Georgia must test fire all handguns shipped to New York and Maryland and include a sample cartridge casing with each firearm.

Januzzo:
"It's been expensive. It slows production, uh, to make sure that we're getting the right cases to the right serial number. At this point we now go through test firing the guns twice."

60 Minutes:
But Paul Januzzo, Vice President of Glock, a former prosecutor, and a lifetime member of the NRA, says he's willing to give a national database a chance.

Januzzo:
"I think the people who right now are saying that there's no use for it, that it can't be used, that it's an intrusion upon our freedoms, have arbitrarily drawn a line too soon."

I don't see where Januzzo or Glock said, "We support ballistic fingerprinting." CBS SAYS that Glock is willing to give a national database a chance. Januzzo or Glock were not quoted as saying anything remotely close to that. We all know ballistic fingerprinting is bad science. Januzzo is not going to risk government contracts with liberal states by holding up a Glock and saying "FROM MY COLD DEAD HANDS" he has to walk the fence, especially on the network of Dan Blather.

I don't see in his statement full support of BF anyway. I would like to see what his next sentence after "...line too soon" was. What did he say next, did he clarify/quantify his statement? I think CBS is putting words in his mouth by stating Glock is in support of a national database.

Is having a fired handgun casing tied to a firearm serial number in a database somewhere really a further intrusion of your freedoms? I think it is a serious waste of tax dollars on junk science, but it is no worse than the 4473's for all firearms purchased already sitting in the ATF databases? Our guns are already registered (except for the used ones bought from private sales). We should be screaming about that.

I think we need to give Januzzo a break and not crucify him over a sound bite that was subsequently interpreted by CBS into support of a national database.

That’s my humble opinion based on what I saw….



By the way, if any of you are going to chunk your Glocks in a river in protest, please send me the Hi-Caps!
 
Another reason to buy a 1911.

dedhorse.gif


Somebody had to say it. :neener:
 
Is having a fired handgun casing tied to a firearm serial number in a database somewhere really a further intrusion of your freedoms?
Click to expand...
Yes. In order for there to be any reason to keep the case/serial #, there must be a corresponding database of names/addresses to serial #/case. The only useful purpose of a database like that, is for confiscation.

And since even a child can understand that a case/serial # database has no practical crime-solving use (barrel-swap, firing pin/extractor swap, file taken to the breech, etc.), the ulterior motive for the database becomes immediately plain.

REGISTRATION FOR THE PUPOSE OF CONFISCATION.
 
Sad,

Glock just had a ND and shot themselves in the foot. Selling mine to cut into their profits and they're now on my er, list.

"You're with us or against us."
G.W. Bush
 
Agree with an earlier poster: I wanna go 10MM and was forced to consider the Glock, which doesn't fit me. 'course, I could make myself fit it, and nobody ever said that it didn't work...

Feels to me like a 2"x4", and I've yet another reason to avoid the dark side!

Seriously, though, there isn't any reason beyond registration of owners, followed by confiscation, for the BFP.

So, as far as I'm concerned, Glock joins S&W on the list.

What else could I do?
 
Quite frankly, I have been considering putting my Glocks toward my next handgun (possibly a Walther P-99 or a 1911). This honestly hasn't driven the nail in the coffin of the two I have, but I don't feel I will be looking for anymore.
 
Stupid, stupid, stupid move on Glock's part. Januuzo's comment that "[paraphrasing] those who think this is a violation of their freedoms have drawn the line prematurely" indicates a clear ignorance of the implications of the BF database or the mneaing of the 2A. No new Glock for me.

BTW, I can't believe LaPierre let that ridiculous "fingerprint" analogy slip by. The proper analygy is not fingerprinting as it exists now because only criminals, LE, and a select portion of the general population have their physical fingerprints on file. A more correct analogy, since BF applies to all law-abiding citizens, would be to a national fingerprint system where everyone is fingerprinted at birth. Is this acceptable? An even better analogy would be to a national genetic fingerprinting system for every man, woman, and child. Ask Morry what he thinks of that.
 
Eric the Administrator at Glock Talk Called Paul Januzzo and was faxed the following statement.

http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=133977

GLOCK is not for gun registration, plain and simple.

A database of firearms characteristics that are captured at the manufacturing site would actually be an argument against registration. GLOCK is not for retrieving and capturing characteristics of firearms that have already been sold, but rather, believes consideration should be given to capturing the characteristics on new firearms for sale. This way the characteristics are recorded to a serial number, not a citizen and his or her gun.

It seems the last point is the most important: The characteristics are tied to a serial number, not a person. This means that since the characteristics are not tied to a person, the ATF would have to do the exact same trace it is entitled by law to do now. Once they receive the cartridge casing from a crime scene, they then would (If the technology works) have a serial number. That way they can go to the manufacturer and ask for the first sale, which, in this case, would probably be to a distributor. Then they go to the distributor and ask for the name of the dealer and then from the dealer they go to look at the 4473 to see to whom it was sold. If the technology is any good, this would seem to be a good crime-solving tool, not gun registration. They have the absolute right to do such a trace under the law right now and they do it every single day, with every gun manufacturer in existence. To argue against the above scenario would seem to be an argument for criminal anonymity.

Too many people are jumping to conclusions. One has to ask oneself, how could some liberal anti-gunner say people-registration is necessary if this concept of a serial number being tied to a firearm's characteristics is viable? Can it be defeated? Sure it can, but the jails are not full and overcrowded because criminals are geniuses.

There are obviously limits that need to be set when one speaks of Government intrusion into the life of a citizen, but that is not what we are talking about here. We are talking about recording the mechanical characteristics to a firearm and a firearm alone.

Will it work? We do not know. Will it be prohibitively expensive? Perhaps it will, but we cannot always just take the knee-jerk reaction and say no because we are used to saying no. It needs time and study to either prove or disprove itself. Because criminals are as a big a threat to civilian ownership of firearms as they anti-gunners are. If it were not for the criminals, the anti-gunners would not have an argument against firearms ownership, except that they do not trust the people. Would you not love to be around the day that mask finally comes off?

As noted above, it is a matter of drawing the line in an intelligent place. That place may be saying 'no' in this instance, but I do not believe we are at the place and have the necessary information to make that decision. Could ballistic fingerprinting be used as an excuse to go further? Certainly, we are not naive enough to believe the camel has its nose stuck as far under the tent as it cares to go. The trick is to draw the line on the slippery slope in an intelligent place. Obviously, a national database or DNA registry could be a great crime-solving tool, but will we as Americans allow that level of intrusion into our personal privacy? Of course we will not. Likewise, here there has to be a balancing of costs(intrusion into personal freedoms) to benefits(potential crime-solving tool), and since there is no intrusion into our personal freedom and there is a potential for it to be a crime-solving tool, the equation clearly comes down on the side of waiting to see if the technology has any viability.
Click to expand...
 
"A database of firearms characteristics that are captured at the manufacturing site would actually be an argument against registration. GLOCK is not for retrieving and capturing characteristics of firearms that have already been sold, but rather, believes consideration should be given to capturing the characteristics on new firearms for sale. This way the characteristics are recorded to a serial number, not a citizen and his or her gun." - stephen_g22

Come on Steve, do really believe what you just said?
 
jmbg29 wrote
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is having a fired handgun casing tied to a firearm serial number in a database somewhere really a further intrusion of your freedoms?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes. In order for there to be any reason to keep the case/serial #, there must be a corresponding database of names/addresses to serial #/case. The only useful purpose of a database like that, is for confiscation.

And since even a child can understand that a case/serial # database has no practical crime-solving use (barrel-swap, firing pin/extractor swap, file taken to the breech, etc.), the ulterior motive for the database becomes immediately plain.

REGISTRATION FOR THE PUPOSE OF CONFISCATION.
Click to expand...

What do you think every 4473 on file at the ATF is, document retention? It is registration. It is already there. Unless you bought every gun you own at garage sales and have never filled out a 4473, your guns are registered.

If there is a database matching a serial number to a fired casing, the ATF would go to that manufacturer and find the dealer that was shipped that particular pistol. The ATF would then go to that dealer and look at 4473's to find the original purchaser, just as they do today.

Do I think ballistic fingerprinting is a stupid idea, yes. Do I think Paul Januzzo's statement that was cleverly edited into an anti-gun piece by CBS is worthy of boycotting Glock, no.
 
I think 60 minutes used editing to make it look really bad, but it is bad no matter what.

I read the statement released by the glock guy and have to say it is still sounding like a tad much, someone should kick the camel's nose instead of seeing if this works.

The current data bases are in gun manufacturers hands and that one place where they have yet to be used to solve one case, but it has been used to consume millions of dollars.
 
repost;

I saw the 60 minutes report as well. And to think I was looking into a G26...well not anymore. What a shame..

On a side note the tone of the show was completely pro-ballistic-fingerprinting and completely anti-NRA. Editing La-pierre's comments so that they would be imflamatory...choosing to chastise them for showing the video on how easy it is to change a fingerprint...giving more air time to the opposition...how blatantly biased can you get...LAME.

I'll stick with FoxNews.
 
look at how investigations are already botched because someone transposes a number and law enforcement knocks down the wrong door. heck, i had to correct one person filling out the serial numbers on a 4473 for me since they wrote down the numbers backwards (the numbers were the ones that look the same upside down, like 8s, 6s, 9s, 0s.)
there will be human error as investigators go to follow the paper trail from the manufacturer to the retailer who then goes through the hardcopy of the 4473's and relays the info.
this alone is basis to NOT create the data base in the first place, not to mention that all it will take is someone replacing their barrel/firing pin to nullify the BF originally taken.
we may as well create a database of tire tread marks to track down hit-and-runs.
 
Lets say for some unknown miraculous reason it does work...Now the Second Ammendment comes into play...........I believe as most others do, the Second Ammendment is there to take our government back if things get a little nasty for us common folk. The government finds an empty shell casing....off to jail you go, along with most of your family.
Make no mistake about it guys, it stinks to the highest degree.
 
4th Horseman said
"A database of firearms characteristics that are captured at the manufacturing site would actually be an argument against registration. GLOCK is not for retrieving and capturing characteristics of firearms that have already been sold, but rather, believes consideration should be given to capturing the characteristics on new firearms for sale. This way the characteristics are recorded to a serial number, not a citizen and his or her gun." - stephen_g22

Come on Steve, do really believe what you just said?
Click to expand...

I was posting a statement by Paul Januzzo. He said it, not me.

Here is what I believe.

I believe any firearm purchased that has a 4473 associated with it is already registered, and I think that stinks. I believe that because it is against the law to carry a concealed handgun without a permit (registering my fingerprints and the strong possibility that I possess a handgun) that my 2nd Amendment rights have already been trampled. What difference would it make if the government had a shell casing to match the 4473 registration form it already has. It is not a slippery slope because the gun is already registered.
I think this whole situation has been blown out of porportion by the editors at CBS and a few people with their boycott triggers tuned a little tight.

I need a drink.

PS 4th Horseman, I really like your signature line. My behind the blade of grass gun is a M44!
 
Steve you're a good man with good intentions. I truely believe that.
Sir if you read earlier posts, I mentioned I called Glock this morning and talked to their legal department, as many others have. They stand behind their VP 100%. Do you think that they have not been briefed on what to say? Do you think their PR program is taking serious incoming rounds now? Have they changed their statements?
Steve, hang in there buddy, we'll make it together.;)
 
There are obviously limits that need to be set when one speaks of Government intrusion into the life of a citizen, but that is not what we are talking about here. We are talking about recording the mechanical characteristics to a firearm and a firearm alone.

Will it work? We do not know. Will it be prohibitively expensive? Perhaps it will, but we cannot always just take the knee-jerk reaction and say no because we are used to saying no. It needs time and study to either prove or disprove itself.
Click to expand...

:what:

WRONG ANSWER!

I'm convinced that their primary interest is continuing to supply the cops and feds. The "civilian" market doesn't appear to mean much to them and they are selling out.

How the hell can a company that manufactures FIREARMS be so bloody out of touch with the American gun-owner?!?

This is ludicrous in the extreme.

The deserve everything they are going to get.

:cuss: :fire: :cuss: :fire: :cuss:
 
My reply to Januzzo's clarification

Maybe if the camel insists on sticking its nose where it doesn't belong the camel should be had for dinner, no?

Every gun owner should absolutely fear ballistic fingerprinting and draw their line of opposition to it right here, right now, while our nominal friends are in charge of national gun policy and the technology is in its infancy.

By evidence of Mr. Januzzo's clarification and the opinions of those among you who do not see a problem, perhaps you are not crediting the imagination of your foes nearly enough. Perhaps you do not see the unintended consequences of the potential crime fighting tool.

First of all, BF proponents are NEVER going to settle with a BF system of new handguns only, or handguns alone. Once a BF system is in place, it doesn't need to work! Has no one been paying attention? Gun control laws largely do not work, yet the solution is invariably more of the same medicine. It is almost axiomatic that the initial failure of a national BF database will be attributed not to the inherent flaws of such a database, but because there is not enough information in it. The expansion of such a system would come as surely as night follows day, it would only be a matter of when Democrats or their successors are in charge again. Who is going to randomly "serialize" your anonymous older pistols,rifles and shotguns and cases so that it can all be matched to you in the legally permissible manner? Who is going to sell you a new extractor without a "by your leave" from the law enforcement authorities because you'd be changing the "fingerprint?"

I'd also take a moment to point out that when such a "tool" is created, it will be abused. The FBI has been caught in repeated scandals regarding its abuse and sloppiness regarding DNA evidence. Lately, the FBI practice of "testilying" about its ability to chemically match batches of lead to particular lots of bullets, which can be conclusively linked to the ones found in a suspect's possession, has been all but discredited as a twisted science fantasy. Yeah, let's give the LEOs innumerable amounts of discrete and mutable tool marks to play with. No concerns? You might be if your casing taken from a range by a criminal and planted at a murder scene "mathematically proves that only you or someone with access to your Glock could have committed the crime."

Mr. Januzzo speaks of an "intelligent" point at which to draw the line. Well it seems to me that the best way to avoid falling down the slippery slope into oblivion is to not let someone push you onto it in the first place, not volunteer to see just how slippery it is. The intelligent point to oppose BF is before the slope starts. Mr. Januzzo, and by extension, Glock, are missing that intelligent point right about now and missing it badly. I am not going to buy that Glock 20 I had my eye on after all. I'd rather buy something more anonymous that is not available for sale in NY or MD.
 
I second what Boats just said. That's an x-ring.

Is the water boiling yet?

Also, pretty fast spin-control to G-T. Must have tied up the phones in Smyrna, guys. I'm sure, given some of the boot-licking responses over there (G-T), that they'll go to sleep tonight in Smyrna secure in the knowledge that at least some people bought it.

We'll see what the bottom line is at year's end. How much will the piper charge?
 
awwww come on, they wouldn't want to BF yer new trap shotgun would they?

MARYLAND SB 208

Sponsored By Senators Forehand, Ruben, Britt, Conway, Exum, Garagiola, Grosfeld, Jones, Kelley, Lawlah, McFadden, and Teitelbaum

Entitled Firearms - Shell Casings and Other Identification Information
Committee
Assignments Senate: Judicial Proceedings

Synopsis:

Applying to all firearms specified requirements concerning shell casings and other identification information; requiring a manufacturer that ships or transports a firearm to be sold, rented, or transferred in the State to provide a separate sealed container with a specified shell casing and additional information; requiring a dealer to forward the sealed container to the Department of State Police on the sale, rental, or transfer of the firearm; etc.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


YES THEY WOULD!

Now how are they gonna BF a flintlock firearm?
i guess those become illegal to purchase in Maryland, just like all the 2003 Cowboy Action pistols this year

Gee maybe we can "compromise" and only loose assault weapons this year:
http://mlis.state.md.us/2003rs/billfile/sb0494.htm
 
MN STRELOK--How's the weather up in MN? I'm a MN native boy myself. I grew up in south Minneapolis. Where 'bouts are you from? I don't mean to stir up bad blood. I just wanted to raise a flag to get people's attention. I own a Glock 23 and absolutely LOVE Glock pistols. I was considering the purchase of a Glock 36 later this year. Then again, I absolutely love the "value-priced" S&W 457 which is a very accurate little piece. It's coming out in stainless steel this year so I may forgo my Glock purchase in light of our current situation.

To all the other members.....I just received an email from a MAJOR Glock distributor with whom I have done business. He's probably the greatest person from whom I have purchased shooting products in the past. He always sends me free Birchwood Casey Shoot-n-See targets with my orders (no matter how much I order) and has gone out of his way to greater lengths than any business man in the firearms industry in order to satisfy his customers. However, he's not all that refined and his grammar his a bit hokey at times but he knows Gaston Glock personally. I'll stop being long winded. Here's the brief note he sent to me:

Jer:

They don't have a 2nd ammendment in AUSTRIA.
POLICE STATE.
They give 2 HHOTS ABOUT OUR CIVILINA rights, as they are an LE, MILTARY company, NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU THINK THEY MAKE ON CIVILIAN SALES.
THEY GIVE 2 hoots.
GSSF is their only "GIMME".
AS the models 34 & 35.
AND IT SOUNDS LIKE PAUL JANUUZO 770-432-1202 ext 224 legal dept.
 
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