7.62x38R, aka Nagant Revolver...

[mfree]

...does anyone know where I can lay hands on a cartridge dimension drawing?

I have an idea... which involves either taking a.32ACP M1895 Nagant replacement cylinder and boring it to .32 H&R Magnum, or devising a "sleeve" to locktite or burnish into the original cylinder, more likely the former.

 

[mainmech48]

Try "Cartridges of the World" and/or the Lyman reloading manual. Both will have the drawing you're looking for.

FWIW, cases may be made from .32-20 brass, but it's an involved process and requires turning the rim down in both thickness and circumference. Even then, they'll end up being a bit short.

NOT a good idea to try converting a .32 ACP cylinder to .32 H&R Mag. The Nagant revolver was designed over a century ago for a cartridge which operates at less than 1/3 the pressure. IMO, you'd be playing Russian Roulette on a crooked wheel. Your eyes, fingers, etc.; your choice.

.32 ACP cartridges are cheap and readily available. As they were designed to be used primarily in blow-back operated semi-autos, pressures are modest, and more suited to the design limits of the Nagant. Given modern projectile design, they'd still be a whole lot better suited to SD/HD duty than the best 7.62 Nagant that you could find. For plinking and recreational use, FMJ .32 ACP would do just fine.

While I know of no current source for new 7.62 Nagant cases, Fiocchi still offers loaded ammo. Boxer-primed and of very nice quality, but rather expensive and somewhat difficult to get. There are occasional lots of surplus that turn up, and rumor is that Century is trying to put together a deal to import new ammo under their own label.

IMO, if you must try a cylinder conversion the .32 S&W Long would be safer. IIWY, I'd make sure that .32 H&R will not chamber in it.

 

[mfree]

So "cartridges of the world" or Lyman. Check, thank you.

Now, I shall go stick a bean up my nose.

 

[unspellable]

Cartdige dimensions

If you go to Cartridges of the World take what you find with a grain of salt. These references are not always right, especially with the more obscure cartridges.

There is a handbook of cartridge conversions. I looked up the 400-360 there (I have a rifle chambered for the 400-360.) and found every last detail to be totally and utterly wrong, wrong, wrong.

 

[Wildalaska]

Having a huge supply of fioochi, I havent really gotten involved in reloading for my fav little pistol yet, but according to what I read on the Nagant Pistol Board (at www.gunboards.com), 32 H&R is safe for use in Nagants...

WildtovarischAlaska

 

[mfree]

Wildalaska,

I've read all that too.. exhausted my planes of research, actually. What I'm trying to get to is to have a cylinder that will fire .32 mag without splitting the case due to an oversized chamber. Once I've got that I can shoot .32S&WL out of it as well and not bulge brass. If I can do that, and manage to lighten the SA pull at all (I know DA is a lost cause), then I have something rudimentarily comparable to a .32 mag SAA with an extra shot and some *history*

it's rare that I sit and google for 3 hours straight and find *nothing*, but the case drawing for the nagant just isn't out there online...

 

[mainmech48]

No offence nor condescension intended. Just my personal opinions based in part on scepticism of just how thoroughly most of those surplus refurbs were reworked, other than cosmetically.

The Nagant may well be able to hold up under 21K CUP pressures. All I said was that I wouldn't be comfortable doing it.

I've had some bad experiences with caliber-converted surplus items in the past. Some were just disappointing, as my foray with a .455 Webley converted to .45 ACP that wouldn't keep a cylinder full on a 16" hub cap at 15 yds, or the Lend-Lease .380-200 S&W converted to .38 Spl that split every case fired in it.

One almost cost me an eye, and lost me my boyish laughter for a goodly while. Many years ago, I bought a 1911 Schmidt-Reuben that'd been converted to .308 and was so-marked on the receiver. It let go and sent a sliver of the receiver into my face. Ammo was surplus GI 7.62 NATO.

Must've seemed like a good idea to whomever did it.

 

[unspellable]

7.62 x 38R drawing

I have a drawing, but I can't figure out how to put it in this posting.

 

[Stainz]

The .32 H&R Magnum is not as much of a magnum to the .32 S&WL as the .357 is to the .38 Spcl, etc. It is actually specified as the appropriate ammo for the Nagants by at least one importer/sellor. In my experience, the soft cases of the MagTech .32 S&WL bulge and split, making reloading impossible. The .32 H&R cases are stronger - as, reportedly, are the .32 S&WL cases of Aguila ammo, although I haven't tried them.

As far as proper ammo, only Russian target ammo and the aforementioned Fiocchi are available here. The Russian ammo averages 590fps in my two Nagants; the Fiocchi makes 690fps. The MagTech 98gr LRN .32 S&WL averages 620fps. All three require the SA style ejector rod to dislodge when spent. The proper cases open at the mouth, which is extended slightly out of the cylinder's concave exits and into the convex barrel entry. The .32 S&WL MagTechs are too small - and bulge and split. Sadly, the Fiocchi ammo is heavily crimped back from the mouth, limiting it's useful life. Graf's lists their own brass as 'coming soon'... Bertram, from 'down under', makes some now - $16/20. I have some, but no appropriate dies. The Lee die set, which I have, is based on the shorter .32-20 case.

I feel that the .32-20 approach is the best. The brass is thick, the pressures low, the appropriate .311-.312 bullets are available. To work properly, you may have to take ~10 thousandths of an inch off the surface of the breech block piece. I elected to sand that much off of 200 new pieces of Starline brass, leaving my firearms stock. Additionally, some material may have to be taken off the inner rim of the cylinder so that the .32-20 cases' rims will rest easily against the cylinder. Again, I elected to turn ~ twenty-four thousandths off the 200 cases using my Taig micro lathe, a tedious affair. The adapting my new brass took a Saturday - but the brass is long lasting.

Using a Meister .312" 100gr LDEWC over 2.7gr Titegroup, and crimping on the top groove, I got 700fps. I used the Lee's seater/crimp die - substituting a carbide M1 Carbine sizer/deprimer for the first slot in my Dillon 550B. The Lee set includes a steel die - the carbide forgoes the case lubrication. I have also tried Berry's Bullets clad .311" 83gr DEWC, getting 815fps with 2.7gr Titegroup, crimping with the bullet completely inside the case. All of my loads tried thus far have produced spent cases which just fell out! It is my understanding that the original Russian defensive load was 90-100gr @ ~1,000FPS. I am happy with my loads - but use them at your own risk!

The Nagant is a neat old revolver. Check out the site on gunboards...

Stainz

 

[RON in PA]

I wouldn't waste my time with a cartridge conversion as in my experience both 32 long and 32 H&R magnum shoot well in the Nagant. You will get case swelling, but I haven't experienced any case splitting with the 32s. Cases resize ok. I do get splitting with a small per cent of Fiocchi factory ammo. I think that the crimp style and/or case annealing that Fiocchi uses is the cause.

 

[EghtySx]

http://www.reloadbench.com/cartspec.html


Edited to add: Oh, sorry, looks like they dont have that one there.

 

[Wildalaska]

Never had a Fiocchi factory one slit yet...I am hording the brass figerring Ill get one load out of em.....

WildgassealAlaska

 

[donkee]

The 32-20 hybrids work great. I do mine with Berry's HBWCs over 4.0g of Unique. I chose to modify my revolver by taking off .002 from the block. I ordered another to put the revolver back to the way it was when I got it. Don't have a chrony, so I can't tell you any velocities. Most brass falls right out after firing. It's so good, I ordered another one I can pick up next week!

 

[cookekdjr]

Inter-Ordnance's recent ad in Shotgun News advises that .32 H&R mag "works fine" in their Nagant revolvers.

 

[unspellable]

drawing

mfree wants a drawing. Can anybody tell me how to get my drawing into a post here?

 

[JA]

I get about 10-15 cases split at the neck per box of Fiocchi ammo. The problem is the excessive case mouth crimp. Notice the long gentle taper crimp of the Russian ammo. I have fired 3 boxes and never had a single case split of the Russian ammo.
Russian,Fiocchi,and once fired Fiocchi case with neck split.

 

[mfree]

Unspellable, is it hosted anywhere, as in, is there a web link for it?

If there is, click the little postcard-looking icon on the menu bar when you make a post, it's between the bullet mode icon and the little icon of earth with a chain link on it.

if not, my email is [email protected]....

 

[unspellable]

7.62 x 38R drawing

try this:

http://www.municion.org/7_62nagant/7_62nagant.htm

It shows Chinese, French, and Italian ammo, but oddly enough no Russian.

 

[BluesBear]

From municion.org

.

 

[saands]

It seems odd to me that people say that the 32acp is OK in these Nagants but "beware the 32H&R Mag" ... My QuickLoad database shows the max pressures for the 32acp as 23,206 psi and the 32H&R Mag as 23,496 psi ... those 290 psi don't qualify as a big difference to me. I have only heard of people using the 32acp with aftermarket cylinders, so I was thinking that maybe it is a cylinder wall issue (I can't see any way that it could be a frame issue if the 32acp is OK). I for one, will not be loading all the way up to 23kpsi, but it looks like 1000 fps should be attainable at around 14kpsi with V-V N105 and that is the pressure where the 32 S&W Longs max out ...

One more comment, I use Starline 32-20 brass and the resizing was anything but complicated ... I lubed 'em up and ran them through the Lee sizing die ... trimming of the case head was required neither in thickness nor diameter on any of my brass on either of the two Nagants that I have used. I have read that some of the other 32-20 brass makers may use thicker rims, htough, so YMMV.

Be safe out there ...
Saands

 

[Ash]

Original non-target Russian military ammo was considerably more powerful than the target stuff currently available or the Fiocchi. Both are down loaded, one because targets require no great power, the other because of the rare possibility that such ammo will be fired in a Piper revolver, which cannot take higher pressures. Indeed, acording to Cartridges OTW, original military load pushed a 108 grain bullet to 1,100 FPS.

Now, .32H&R Mag is safe to use. If you don't want to use it, then don't. .32 ACP will NOT fire without a special cylinder because the round's rim is too narrow and the entire cartridge will slide foreward beyond the firing pin's reach.

The only conversion that is not generally considered safe (though no failure has ever been reported) is the 7.62x25 Tokarev conversion both due to higher pressures and to the thinning of the chamber walls from the fatter cartridge. No reports of Nagants exploding have come forth, but better safe than sorry.

Though odd, isn't it, that folks talk about converting P14 or M1917 Enfields to magnum rounds which produce considerably more pressures than either .303 Brit or 30-06 (the rounds for which the action was designed) and yet such fear is generated over mild pressure differences between already weak rounds.

Ash

Ash

 

[JA]

I have 3 Nagant pistols. One is origional,one I installed the aftermarket 32acp cylinder from Century Arms,and the other one I sent the cylinder off to D.A.W. in the mid 1990's to have it bored out to 7.62x25mm.
Here is a pic of the D.A.W. ad and SOG ad as they apeared in Shotgun News in the mid 1990's.

For more info on loading for or shooting other types of ammo in Nagant pistols you need to read the posts on this forum.
http://www.gunboards.com/forums/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=21

 

[unspellable]

Pressures and actions

People constantly talk of pressure when debating whether a particular cartridge may be safe with a particular action. What is always overlooked, is back thrust. back thrust is as important and perhaps more so than pressure when considering an action and cartridge combo.

In the case of a bolt action rifle, pressure is relatively easy to deal with, it's mostly a matter of adequate brass and an adequate barrel/chamber. Pressure is irrelevant to the question of the action. Whether or not the action is adequate is determined entirely by the back thrust. relatively low pressure loads may generate a very large back thrust and vice versa. A 223 runs 55000 psi but produces a relatively low back thrust. A 12 Gauge runs only about 11500 psi but generates a very large back thrust, on a par with the 458 Winchester.

In a revolver, pressure is more of a consideration because the cylinder tends to be relatively weak compared to a rifle chamber. The weak point is NOT the bolt notches, but rather tends to be the web between the chambers. A five holer like the Taurus raging Bull in 454 has five holes not so much to get the bolt notches away from the thin part of the cylinder wall as to make the web between chambers thicker.

In the case of a recoil operated pistol people tend to think higher pressure causes higher slide velocity, but such is not the case. Here a quantity called cartridge impulse is the considertaion and it is determined by bullet weight, powder weight, and muzzle velocity, not pressure.

 

[saands]

Unspellable,

You provide good insight with your analysis of slide speed on pistols, but I have to disagree with your argument that:

Pressure is irrelevant to the question of the action.

The part about "back thrust" (force applied to the breech face) is accurate, but the irrelevance of the pressure to that force is incorrect. The force in question is the direct result of the pressure. It is NOT, however, simply related to the pressure. Recalling that distant physics class, force is generated by a pressure acting over an area (F = PA ... not to be confused with F=ma ... seems that "F = parents" here, doesn't it I couldn't resist). Anyway, the area in question is the area of the case head (not including the rim if one exists) and the pressure in question is the chamber pressure. This means that if two cases have the same case head diameter (and therefore area) then the ONLY thing you need to look at to compare them on relative terms is chamber pressure. This works pretty well with the 32acp, 32H&R Mag, 32-20, 32S&W Long and 7.62x38 discussed in this thread at length. If, on the other hand, you want to compare two cartridges that have different case head diameters, like the 7.62x25 and the 7.62x38 also discussed here, then you have to look at actual forces and the only way to do that is to multiply the pressures by the areas of the respective case heads.

relatively low pressure loads may generate a very large back thrust and vice versa. A 223 runs 55000 psi but produces a relatively low back thrust. A 12 Gauge runs only about 11500 psi but generates a very large back thrust, on a par with the 458 Winchester.

If you look at your examples, you will see that my explanation reconciles the apparent lack of relevance ... the 223 has a tiny case head so the 55kpsi doesn't have much area to act on, while the 12 ga has a HUGE case head and therefore the 11.5kpsi is able to generate substantial forces.

This, by the way, is why it is a big mistake to simply compare the pressure of a 30-06 (or 8x57) to that of a 300 WinMag (with a much bigger case head) when looking at that Mauser conversion to a belted magnum ...

FWIW, I hope this added a little clarity ...

Saands

 

[unspellable]

pressure vs back thrust

I don't think you have said anything that disagrees with what I said.

My saying pressure was "irrelevant" was a rhetorical attempt to get people out of the rut and thinking in terms of the correct parameters. I left out the matter of how the back thrust is produced or calculated on the back of the envelope for the sake of brevity. I guess brevity has its hazards.

I will disagree with you on one minor point. the area in question is the inside case diameter at the head, not the head diameter.