7.62X39 bolt action rifle for target shooting.

[bergwerk]

First I apologise in case this issue has been previously debated but my search didn't produce results.

I like the low cost of the 7.62X39 round which will allow me to enjoy target shooting without breaking the bank.

I do not like AK style rifles and while aware of the bolt action CZ 527 carbine and the Remington 799 Mini Mauser I do not consider them fit for serious target shooting.

Question 1: Is the 7.62X39 round ballistically fit for accurate target shooting and if so to what distance?

Question 2: Is there a standard production bolt action rifle that has target capable features like barrel, trigger, stock with adjustable LOP etc. ?

Question 3: Lack of a standard production rifle where and how can a custom rifle be assembled without braking the proverbial bank?

Thank you for all input.

 

[armoredman]

Well, by skipping the 527, I think you're missing a serious good bet. The 7.62x39mm was never meant for a full size target rifle, and while is capable of very good accuracy, is not a benchrest cartridge by any means. You will be handloading for this, right? Wolf just isn't gonna "do it" for ya for serious target work.

 

[bergwerk]

Armoredman thanks for the reply.

Afraid I must answer no to the hand loading issue. Never gone down that path having been lucky enough to be at the receiving end of free shot shells and pistol rounds. That is no longer the case hence the need for cheap ammo.

The CZ is a nice rifle with a nice trigger but it will require a new stock which I had trouble locating. I also suspect that the short 18.5" barrel may not be good enough for what I have in mind.

 

[Smokey Joe]

Cheap vs. good

Bergwerk--

low cost of the 7.62X39 round

None of that surplus "el cheapo" military ammo will do for serious target shooting. It's just fine for plinking, and for practicing trigger squeeze and breath control.

Now, that said, there's nothing inherently wrong with the 7.62x39 round. However (there is always that darn "however!") most serious target shooters use other cartridges, and the most commonly used have the most data available for reloading and shooting with accuracy. What cartridge to use depends partly on what particular discipline of target shooting you plan to pursue.

I'd avoid trying to re-invent the wheel were I you.

And for accurate target shooting, you WILL be reloading, tailoring yr load to the individual firearm in question. So there goes the idea of buying cheap surplus ammo.

Sorry to rain on your parade.

 

[SSN Vet]

"serious target shooting"

requires either expensive match ammo. or handloads

as far as 7.62x39, it costs just as much to reload as other more popular bench rest cartridges.

if you want to do "serious" target shooting on the cheep, my suggestion would be a Savage rifle in .223 REM, an aftermarket stock, an innexpensive reloading set up and really nice optics.

Brass for .223 is cheap (free), powder is cheep, and match bullets for .223 are reasonable.

Reloading will teach you a lot of info. that would improve your target shooting. And it seems that nearly all of the serious bench rest shooters reload.

 

[bergwerk]

Smokey Joe and SSN Vet I was afraid or rather expecting such answers simply because what you guys say makes sense.

I guess being new to rifle target I want to avoid a more expensive round until such time that I feel comfortable that I want to pursue the sport.

At that point I also appreciate that I will have to enter the reloading community but....for now I just want to stick my toe in the water.

 

[HB]

Cheap ammo=Poor accuracy, I say buy a nice .22 and shoot mid-grade target ammo.
Savage, a brick of Wolf MT, and some good glass
HB

 

[ThomasT]

Search for post by Krocus. He has a savage rebarreled to 7.62x39 and it shoots very well. I beleive he hand loads for it though.

A 22 is a good bet and for centerfire 243 or 308 would work. There are some good match loads for 223 and 308 but they ARE NOT cheap compared to bulk AK ammo. Or anything else for that matter.

I buy the green box Remington express for my 243 and I shoots 1" and smaller groups with it. I used to buy it at WM for $10.83 a box but not anymore. I think its around $15 for a box of 20 now.

Black Hills ammo is supposed to very accuate also.

If you want to target shoot you had better get used to the idea of reloading your own ammo.

 

[Reid73]

Ultimately, just about any cartridge can be used for target shooting. The 7.62X39 is not what I would consider the optimum choice, though it might be fun to play with it and tailor some accurate loads. However, I won't consider this if your real objective is to save money.

This thread may be of interest.

how can a custom rifle be assembled without braking the proverbial bank?

By doing all of the necessary assembly and tuning work yourself. If you are sufficiently knowledgeable and handy, by all means have at it.

I guess being new to rifle target I want to avoid a more expensive round until such time that I feel comfortable that I want to pursue the sport.

Fair enough. In that case, I second the vote for smallbore rifle shooting. The .22lr is an accurate cartridge and is extremely cheap, even in premium loads. Plenty of nice target rifles have been made in that calibre (e.g., Anschütz, BSA, H&R, Remington, Walther), and if you hunt around for a bit you shouldn't have difficulty picking up a secondhand one for not much money.

 

[Pulsar]

I say BUY the rifle you want and shoot the cheap ammo

it really depends on what your definition of target shooting

one of my ak-74 groups around 3-4 inch groups at 100 yds with wolf ammo and hitting silhouette out to 600yds is not a problem

would i hunt with the gun no
but its fun to play with

 

[R.W.Dale]

I've built a Shilen barreled stevens200 specifically for shooting tiny tiny groups at ranges up to 300meters. I started with an off the shelf 223 stevens 200, by the time the dust had settled I had installed:

1/15" twist shilen .308 bored prefit savage bbl, bull contour 26"
Choate ultimate varmint stock
Rifle basix trigger
scorehigh benchrest follower
SSS recoil lug
custom worked over .223 bolt face
and a Leupold 32x scope in leupold mounts

I did all the work myself excluding the bolt face work and have less than $1000 in the rifle minus optics. With this rig shooting handloads I've managed to shoot a book full of 100m 5 shot targets that measure in the low .3's with a personal best of .257" If I manage to do my part I can hold this level of accuracy out to 300m which is the longest range at our club.

However This level of accuracy is not even gonna remotely happen with ANY factory loadings. Through my CZ527 carbine I owned and my current 7.62x39 AR15 factory loads be they brass or steel cased are at best a 3MOA proposition. With handloads the CZ was a good 1.5 MOA preformer, a nice rifle for sure but hardly a benchrest rig by any stretch of the imagination. Once I finished the stevens 200 the CZ got traded fro the 32x scope

as far as 7.62x39, it costs just as much to reload as other more popular bench rest cartridges.

I beg to differ, cartridges such as 6mmppc or BR all require some mega expensive brass that requires a lot of specialized prep work with equipment that's also very $$$. The only specialized equipment I've purchased for my rig is a $20 lee collet die

Question 3: Lack of a standard production rifle where and how can a custom rifle be assembled without braking the proverbial bank?

Savage/Stevens doing the work DIY as I did. A 7.62x39mm AR 15 with a free floated H-bar could also be another relatively low buck option for getting some good 7.62x39 groups beyond what the CZ carbine offers. MY x39 AR has a 20 h-bar with handguards and it shoots brettty dang good

 

[R.W.Dale]

NOW for the PICS

 

[zedheadmc]

Check out www.specialinterestarms.com. Richard may be able to help you get that 7.62x39 bolt action rifle and get it pretty cheaply.

 

[R127]

7.62x39 was designed for combat and it is very good for that purpose. Because of the essential similarity of the two activities it is also a great hunting round. It is inherently stable and accurate but has a few points against it for long range shooting of cloverleaf groups. The main issue is the bullet's velocity. Because it is slow and heavy it hits hard but has a long time in flight and a more pronounced ballistic arc than other popular long range target shooting rounds. A longer time in flight means it has more opportunity to be displaced by a cross wind or other factors. These are negligible issues for combat or hunting applications but will make printing cloverleaf groups at long range difficult.


The 18.5 inch barrel of the CZ 527 won't hurt it, again because of the velocity. This round was designed to be fired from a short barrel and there isn't much to gain from using a longer one. Barrel length in and of itself does not relate directly to accuracy. It has a set trigger which is suited for accurate shooting. There's really nothing in terms of bedding, floating, comb height or length of pull adjustment that you can't do to the standard stock. It is already cut for a scope. Your best bet would probably be feeding it Fiochi, it's brass cased and reloadable. It is also said to be more accurate than most commercial 7.62x39.

I guess the bottom line is what you really want to do. If you want to develop excellent marksmanship skills the 527 in 7.62x39 can get you there. Practice ammo can be had relatively cheaply and the velocity will not be much of a disadvantage on the standard 100 and 200 yard rifle ranges that seem to predominate. The truth is the majority of shooters could benefit significantly from a rifle like the CZ 527 and hours of practice afforded by inexpensive Russian commercial ammo. If you want to use a coolguy rifle to spend all day taking only four or five shots that all overlap then you need to look elsewhere than the 7.62x39 cartridge.

If you're interested in inexpensive target shooting you may also want to check out accurizing a Mosin Nagant. There are more choices in commercial and surplus ammo, it is all relatively affordable and there is real sniper and match grade ammo available in 7.62x54r.

 

[HB]

accurizing a Mosin Nagant

= oxymoron

HB

 

[R.W.Dale]

The 18.5 inch barrel of the CZ 527 won't hurt it, again because of the velocity. This round was designed to be fired from a short barrel and there isn't much to gain from using a longer one.

I respectfully disagree, 7.62x39 benifets ballistically from a longer bbl just like any other cartridge will. Loads that pushed 2400 fps in the little 18" CZ carbine were pushing close to 2800fps in my 26" barreled bench rig. A FREE velocity increase of 350fps is nothing to scoff at

= oxymoron

HB

Shows what you know, The Finnish Mosins are some of the most constantly accurate Milsurp rifles money can buy. The Soviets shot in Olympic matches with heavily modified Mosins

 

[R127]

That depends on what you mean by accurizing. With little work and all of it essentially free my Tula 91/30 will shoot 2 inches or under at 100 yards with Brown Bear 185gr FMJ when I'm having a good day. Based on performance before I did the work I would expect Czech silver tip to do better than that but I haven't tried it out yet and I probably couldn't do it without the benefit of a scope.

 

[R127]

Wow, that's pretty radical Krochus. Are you talking about handloads, commercial loads or pretty much anything you feed through the 26 inch barrel? It doesn't look like there's enough unburned powder coming out the muzzle of my AK to make that kind of difference. I do know that the RPK's rear sight is different from the AK's in part because of a slight difference in velocity due to the much longer barrel of the RPK but in casual shooting I never noticed a pronounced difference in ballistic arc. A ~120gr at 2800fps is edging in on .308 territory. I'll have to plug some numbers into a ballistic calculator and see what that would look like. That is a very impressive rifle you have there for sure.

 

[R127]

Great, now you've got me all giddy! Apparently the difference in arc between a 122gr bullet at 2400fps and 2800fps isn't enough at the 100-200 yards I typically shoot at for me to really have noticed. Now I have to go chrono an RPK! Accordingly to my calculator you're making around 2100ftlbs at the muzzle with a 7.62x39!

 

[HB]

7.62x39 benefits ballistically from a longer bbl just like any other cartridge will

I don't know about the X39 but some calibers will slow down if you use the factory intended loadings. A .22 slows down after about 18'' IIRC

Accurizing a Mosin = oxymoron

Shows what you know

Its called a joke

HB

Back to the original topic...

 

[R.W.Dale]

The aforementioned data regarding velocity increase is with handloads, I won't shoot steel jacketed ammo through my .308 bored match barrel.
<p>
Using either AA1680 or N120 max loads Hornady 110g V-maxes will occasionally break 2800fps through the stevens 200, 125 grn bullets usually run somewhere between 2730 and 2750 fps. But bear in mind that this is with a slow twist rate with a tighter bore than your production 7.62x39's will have.

However I've tended to use slower H335 with 125grn bullets, velocities aren't a s good a the two fast powders above <appx 2600fps> but accuracy is phenomenal. The pink highlighted group above was shot using h335

I don't know about the X39 but some calibers will slow down if you use the factory intended loadings. A .22 slows down after about 18'' IIRC

I firmly believe this is a MYTH as well, even in a .22LR. I had a 28" barreled cz ultra lux and regardless of the load it would ALWAYS beat the factory velocity spec for the ammo chronographed. Allegedly a cartridge such as 308win will lose velocity in a bbl that 's too long, however it supposedly takes something like a 50" barrel for this to happen

 

[R127]

Thanks for the information. I have got to start rolling my own even if I won't achieve everything out of my rifle that you can get out of yours. Based on your results and others I have seen over the years I'm really missing out. I hearby officially give you the R127 Award For Coolest 7.62x39 Shooter I Have Yet Run Across!

 

[Jim Watson]

I had a 28" barreled cz ultra lux

If you don't handload and you don't have a LARGE ammunition budget, the smart thing to do is to get a good .22 as above and learn to shoot it. I put blasting Commie surplus in the same category as setting off fireworks. It is loud but it is not what I want to do with a gun.

But then I DO handload.

 

[bergwerk]

I hearby officially give you the R127 Award For Coolest 7.62x39 Shooter I Have Yet Run Across!

Allow me to say ditto. Humbly.

The krochus rifle is what I'm dreaming of but I'm awake enough to know my limitations when it comes to performing any kind of handiwork on rifles. As for having this rifle duplicated by a gunsmith I am certain to be exceeding my budget.

In response to earlier suggestions on .22 lr training it is exactly my son's Anschutz 64 MPR that got me interested in target rifle shooting. I recently visited with him and after shooting the rifle at his club I started thinking about a center fire low cost alternative. Some of the European / Russian .22 biathlon rifles are works of art but while the ammo can be inexpensive the rifles themselves are not. The .22 also lacks the range that I am interested in.

There are plenty of good suggestions in your responses and I need to get to work on those. The Mosin Nagant is an intriguing thought as are several other ideas.

 

[jon_in_wv]

Here is an option. Buy a nice 22lr for building your skills and a K31 for when you want more power. Mine shoots fantastically with GP11 ammo and it uses .308 lead so the 7.5x55 is a good round to use if you choose to start hand loading. There is getting to be a good amount of info out there on the rounds also. If you choose not to reload the GP11 ammo is still relatively cheap and has a very good reputation for accuracy. I've shot mine 1 5/8" for three shots at 100 yards and open sights. I think I could top that easily with a quality scope.