7.62x39 vs 30-30

[yotesmoker]

I keep hearing that the 7.62x39 is compareable to the 30-30 in hunting power.Is this really true?The reloading manuals do not back this up.I have several rifles in 7.62 so if true I would have no need for a 30-30 rifle.I do reload so do I really need another rifle in 30-30 or is the 7.62 good enough.[My cz is a real tackdriver}

 

[rbernie]

The reloading manuals generally don't list the heavier bullets in 7.62x39 that make the comparison more visible. However, you can take 150gr-180gr bullets designed for use in the 303R/7.7Japanese/7.62x54R and use them in the 7.62x39 so long as the OAL remains in spec. I use the Hornady 150gr (@ ~2100fps) and 174gr RN (@ ~1950fps) to good effect in my 7.62x39 handloads.

 

[Sam1911]

I'll second Rbernie's comments.

Handloading will help the 'x39 do a lot more than the surplus ammo can do.

It will never give you 100% of what a .30-30 can do with the heaviest bullets, but pretty close. Certainly close enough for deer hunting purposes. Buying another rifle to get the maximum benefit that a .30-30 could provide over a 7.62x39 in a bolt-action rifle would seem to be a bit of a waste of money.

If you're going to buy a new rifle, strictly for increased performance, I'd certainly want to spend the same money to get a lot MORE performance. The difference between the x39 and a .30-'06 or even .308 would be worth it. A .30-30? Not so much.

-Sam

 

[R.W.Dale]

A properly loaded 7.62x39 from a cz will do anything a marlin can in terms of killing game and then some. You have the benifet of much greater accuracy and the ability to shoot thf most aerodynamic bullets. In my opinion these two factors alone trump the paltry 100 fps advantage 30/30 has in velocity

+3 RBernies comments only I use slicker .308 diameter bullets for all my x39 handloads

Lets compare a remington factory 150grn 30-30 load to a 150 ballistic tip from a x39

30-30-----MV 2300----100yd energy 1296---200yd energy 860

7.62x39mm--MV 2150--100yd energy 1293---200yd energy 1080

 

[yotesmoker]

Krochus, you have me a little concerned.You say you use .308 heads....I picked up a few thousand .310 heads for reloading.I intended to use these in my cz carbine....suggestions???

 

[bang_bang]

Listen to Krochus closely...I've read many of his posts about the 7.62x39 and his experiments. I wouldn't hesitate to dub him the x39 master on THR!

Seriously, according to those numbers, they seem the same as far as velocity and energy, but the x39 appears to smack the hell outta the 30-30 at 200.

 

[CoRoMo]

I picked up a few thousand .310 heads for reloading.I intended to use these in my cz carbine....suggestions???

Proceed.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

Hornady has started making a much more aerodynamic bullet called Leverevoluiton in 30-30 and has a bit more ommph. Their website has the performance data. I hope this is helpful.

 

[R.W.Dale]

Krochus, you have me a little concerned.You say you use .308 heads....I picked up a few thousand .310 heads for reloading.I intended to use these in my cz carbine....suggestions???

One if my sig links adresses this. Baciclly you can shoot just about any moderately .30 caliber projectile in the cz

 

[Walkalong]

A CZ carbine in 7.62 X 39 is one of my "gotta have some day" guns. Someday.

 

[kansas coyote]

Attention needs payed to Sheepdog1968's post the new levervolution ammo completly changed your everday 30/30 into a much higher velocity gun with substancial increase in effective target range and impact destruction at 250+ yrds . They claim it streachs the legs of the 30/30 out to 300 yds . I have shot coyotes with it and the energy create with this round is very formatable . Check it out you will be pleasantly suprised .

 

[R.W.Dale]

160grn Hornady--
MV from 20" bbl 2287--100yd energy 1485--200yd energy 1173

http://www.realguns.com/archives/120.htm

The hornady may indeed be great 30-30 ammo but in my opinion it's not nearly the game changer their advertisement lets on. This ammo's advantage over STD 30-30 is largely as a placebo making shooters think their levergun can now do things it was more than capable of doing before. Either was as others point out why buy a 30-30 for a 5% increase in performance, buy a gun that offers a real boost in horsepower .308/30-06/270/7mm08 ect ect

 

[Werewolf]

I use slicker .308 diameter bullets for all my x39 handloads

Serious question, not being a wise ass:

How does one shoot a .308 diameter jacketed bullet out of a barrel that should have a nominal bore of .311 (which is the nominal diameter spec for 7.62X39 bullets).

I could see it working with a .308 if the bullet was lead due to obturation but not with jacketed bullets.

What am I missing here?

 

[R.W.Dale]

Becuse between the lands you still have the same .300 mesurment as American 30 cal firearms offering plenty of bite on the bullet. Again one of the sig links outlines this in great detail

 

[Werewolf]

Becuse between the lands you still have the same .300 mesurment as American 30 cal firearms offering plenty of bite on the bullet. Again one of the sig links outlines this in great detail

Not a question of bite. Plenty of rifling there to grab and spin the bullet.

The problem is there is still .0025 between the bullet jacket and the bore diameter as measured using your results of .3105. That's 2 and a half thousandths gap.

Your own testing data shows a difference in velocity between identical loads except bullet diameter of an average of about 80FPS. That's 80fps slower with the .308 bullet and that's because the smaller bullet is not sealing the barrel.

That means there's lots of extremely hot gas leaking by the bullet. Over time that hot gas is going to erode the barrel the same as it does the forcing cones of revolvers like a .357 firing hot loads.

No doubt that the .308 will shoot out of a barrel made for 7.62X39 but not efficiently and one opens one's barrel up to unnecessary damage.

Of course it's up to the individual whether or not they want to shoot a .308 out of a nominal .311 bore. In the short run they won't have any problems. In the long run, after a few thousand rounds or so - good luck with keeping the barrel unpitted, uneroded and still accurate.

 

[Cosmoline]

150 grain you can get on par or even exceed the .30-30 because the x39 can use spitzer soft point and has enough capacity. But I couldn't beat the .30-30 170 handloads with the x39 handloads in my old CZ. At that weight the bullet takes up too much room and restricts capacity.

Also, as noted the leverevolutoin really has changed things for the .30-30. I was amazed by its performance. 1MOA groups and excellent velocity--even if not quite as high as the box claims.

 

[R.W.Dale]

I simply don't see a issue as over the course of several hundred such loads I haven't noted any of this catastropic bbl damage you predict. As I mention in the other thread this velocity disparity all but disappears with max loads. Couple this with the fact that hunting loads with expensive semi premium bullets are a fairly low volume of the shooting someone is likely to do.

In short there is simply no way to turn a 7.62x39 into a barrel burner, so what if my accuracy drops off after 4000 rds instead of 6000 do you have any idea how much $$$ that many nosler bullets would cost

 

[Werewolf]

krochus: for a typical hunter that shoots his hunting rifle twice a year - once to check zero and once in a hunt you are correct - erosion won't be an issue, ever. Even after a few hundred rounds you'd have to use a bore scope to see the minor erosion that will have occured.

But some folks, myself among them and I'm pretty sure many others here shoot their rifles a lot more than that.

I've put a couple thousand rounds thru my CZ-550 in .308. I've considered getting a CZ-527 in .223 and one in 7.62X39. I could shoot a couple thousand rounds thru them in a couple of years easy. I have no idea whether it would take a 1000, 2000, 4000 or even 6,000 rounds to erode a barrel enough to make it suck but I know it would eventually if I were putting .308 bullets thru a .3105 bore diameter barrel.

I've never reloaded for a rifle cartridge as all my rifles are in calibers I can buy mil-surp. But I've reloaded thousands of pistol rounds and eroding the barrel just forward of the chamber is not something I'd ever do on purpose just to save a few bucks.

There's lots of guys new to reloading here. If they want to use loads that forum guys publish (and I've found many a useful pistol load here) then great but they deserve the whole picture so they can make informed decisions - especially when those decisions could end up with a damaged firearm.

 

[R.W.Dale]

You think it's about saving a few bucks? If that were the case I'd not even bother reloading and just shoot steel cased animal brand ammo. Which is what I do 90% of the time. I've not said or advocated shooting such loads exclusively

No it's about getting to use hunting bullets more modern than the acient projectile designs you have in .310+ when someone comes out with a decent selection of modern high bc non varmint tipped bullets for the larger bores I'll take note

 

[yotesmoker]

OK,OK...I understand the possible future problem to shoot .308 heads in a .310 bore.What about the reverse...a .310 head in a .308 bore?{jacketed heads}?Thinking useing the 7.62 stock in a 30-30.

 

[Werewolf]

OK,OK...I understand the possible future problem to shoot .308 heads in a .310 bore.What about the reverse...a .310 head in a .308 bore?{jacketed heads}?Thinking useing the 7.62 stock in a 30-30.

Loading the .311 in a cartridge to be shot out of a barrel chambered for .308 will result in higher pressures.

Why not just use .308 bullets when loading a .308 cartridge and a .311 bullet when loading a 7.62X39?

I understand now why krochus loads the .308's into his 7.62X39. He can't get what he considers to be a quality hunting bullet in .311. Understandable. He is willing to accept the consequences of that vis a vis eventual barrel erosion.

Putting a .311 bullet in a .308 barrel is not advisable.

 

[R.W.Dale]

OK,OK...I understand the possible future problem to shoot .308 heads in a .310 bore.What about the reverse...a .310 head in a .308 bore?{jacketed heads}?Thinking useing the 7.62 stock in a 30-30.

I shoot factory ammo with .310 bullets through my .308 bored bench rifle all the time. Contrary to popular belief my bbl is still fine, my $;@- hasn't gotten smaller and I still have most of my hair.

Bottom line in .002 just isn't very darn much.

 

[sonier]

omg i didnt just read that did i?
.002 isnt that much!! ok ok il shake that blow off. but .002 is a lot when im working on a rifle. .002 will result in higher pressures. if your like me and every now and then load a case too hot and mix match it in your practice ammo welllll...... all i know is that really unsafe hotloaded round is now EVEN more DANGEROUS with the higher pressure from .310 bullets for .308 bore

 

[jerkface11]

sonier 7.62x39 isn't loaded hot from the factory. Nowhere near hot enough to blow up a bolt action even with an oversized bullet.

 

[Sam1911]

.002 will result in higher pressures. if your like me and every now and then load a case too hot and mix match it in your practice ammo welllll......

Errrr....so you work to thousandth of an inch precision when working on your rifles, but you are careless enough with your reloading to "load a case too hot" and still shoot it? Whether you don't realize you loaded a round too hot... ... or you KNOW it's loaded too hot and you shoot it anyway... ... that's some "penny-wise but pound-foolish" logic you've got going on there.

I don't have the testing equipment to comment with any authority on the pressure spike caused by firing a .311" or .312" bullet through a .308" bore, and I've not had the occasion to fire 4-6,000 slightly undersized bullets through a rifle bore to measure the erosion effects of gas blow-by.

But any admonitions about safety practices you might feel the need to share start to pale when you admit to such carelessness in your own habits and such an unbalanced view of comparative risks.

-Sam