8-day elk camping trip: critique my packing list

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Richard.Howe

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I have a 5000 cu-in pack, so nobody propose carrying an iron skillet, please! This is an 8-day hike-in elk trip. I want to make sure that I have not forgotten really important stuff, and that I'm not carrying unimportant things. Dry-run says everything listed fits into my pack with a little room to spare. Weight is running right at 50 lbs.

The trip is CO 2nd rifle season, late October, at between 8000 and 10,500 feet elevation. Average low is 10F, record low is -4 at my location. Rapid-onset snowfalls are not uncommon. I am an experienced hiker, but not at this altitude. We will use 2 days to acclimate on the front end of the trip. I will be travelling with my brother who can share some loads, and reduce redundant items.

Fire away!


1. Pack-in
1.1. Base camp
1.1.1. Food
1.1.1.1. 2L water in Nalgene
1.1.1.2. 4ea bottles water, disposable
1.1.1.3. 10ea packs Swiss Miss Chocolate Sensation hot chocolate
1.1.1.4. 1ea package preground coffee (HEB San Antonio blend)
1.1.1.5. 1ea 16oz jar peanut butter
1.1.1.6. 12ea Power-bar or equivalent
1.1.1.7. 8ea boil-in-a-bag MRE-type dehydrated meals
1.1.1.8. 1ea medium box seasoned Minute Rice
1.1.1.9. 1ea medium canister Quaker instant oats
1.1.1.10. 1ea small bottle Tabasco
1.1.2. Food accessories
1.1.2.1. Cooking
1.1.2.1.1. 1 ea Jetboil kit
1.1.2.1.2. 4ea 110 gr. Jetfuel canisters
1.1.2.1.3. 1ea Jetboil coffee press kit
1.1.2.1.4. 1ea Bic pocket lighter
1.1.2.1.5. 2ea boxes waterproofed matches in small Ziploc bag
1.1.2.1.6. 1ea emergency magnesium block & flint
1.1.2.1.7. 1ea Esbit emergency stove
1.1.2.1.7.1. Spare Esbit fuel cubes
1.1.2.1.8. 2ea micro can openers
1.1.2.1.9. 1set camp flatware
1.1.2.1.10. 1ea small can Sterno for difficult fire starting
1.1.2.1.11. 1ea small Al/Ti coffee cup
1.1.2.2. Water
1.1.2.2.1. 1ea Katadyn Hiker Microfilter water filter
1.1.2.2.2. 5ea coffee filters for Katadyn pre-filtering
1.1.2.2.3. 2bottles Potable Aqua iodine tablets and taste rectifier
1.1.3. Misc.
1.1.3.1. 200ft parachute cord
1.1.3.2. 2ea large Hefty trash bags, folded
1.1.3.3. 1pair 60” spare bootlaces
1.1.3.4. Video camera
1.1.3.5. Canon PowerShot still digital camera
1.1.3.5.1. 2ea spare changes of batteries, 8ea. AA-cell
1.1.3.6. Zipper-hung mini thermometer
1.1.3.7. 1ea ACR emergency micro-whistle
1.1.3.8. Lowe Alpine Contour IV 90+15
1.1.3.9. Small digital watch
1.1.3.10. Bear bag
1.1.3.11. Bear mace
1.1.4. Hunting
1.1.4.1.1. Basics
1.1.4.1.1.1. Elk Tag
1.1.4.1.1.2. 1ea Browning A-Bolt 300wm
1.1.4.1.1.3. 20ea rounds in box, in Ziploc bag, manufacturer/type to be determined
1.1.4.1.1.4. Nikon Monarch ATB waterproof 8x42 binos
1.1.4.1.1.5. Bushnell Elite 20-60x80 ED glass spotting scope
1.1.4.1.1.6. Sony 24” VCT-R640 tripod
1.1.4.1.2. Pack-out elk (if req’d)
1.1.4.1.2.1. 1ea External frame pack, frame only, disassembled
1.1.4.1.2.2. Knives
1.1.4.1.2.2.1. 1ea Dozier custom fixed blade
1.1.4.1.2.2.2. 1ea Lone Wolf T2 CPM-S30V folder and sheath
1.1.4.1.2.2.3. 1ea Leatherman Wave
1.1.4.1.2.3. 1pr Leather work gloves
1.1.4.1.2.4. Orange haul-harness
1.1.4.1.3. Misc hunting accessories
1.1.4.1.3.1. Range-finder
1.1.5. Orientation
1.1.5.1. 2ea Silva Ranger compasses
1.1.5.2. 1ea Garmin Gecko 201
1.1.5.2.1. 6ea spare AAA batteries
1.1.5.3. Maps
1.1.5.3.1. 4ea National Geographic 1:24,000 USGS topo maps, waterproof
1.1.5.3.2. 3ea BLM maps
1.1.5.3.3. 1ea Cascade Designs waterproof map bag
1.1.5.4. 20ea reflective ties
1.1.5.5. Rite in the Rain all-weather memo pad spiral
1.1.5.6. Fisher all-weather ballpoint pen
1.1.6. Clothing
1.1.6.1. Head
1.1.6.1.1. 1ea Cabelas Gore-Tex & Thinsulate blaze camo stocking cap
1.1.6.1.2. 1ea Prana lightweight fleece stocking cap
1.1.6.1.3. Neoprene facemask
1.1.6.1.4. Waterproof rain hat with brim?
1.1.6.2. Chest & arms
1.1.6.2.1. el-cheapo lightweight orange mesh vest
1.1.6.2.2. Cabela’s Pro-Guide blaze orange camo pocketed vest
1.1.6.2.3. 1pair silk underlayer
1.1.6.2.4. 1pair cotton underlayer
1.1.6.2.5. Cabelas Lite Loft Late-Season Seclusion 3D Parka
1.1.6.2.6. 2ea heavy buton-down shirts
1.1.6.2.7. 1ea lightweight blaze orange overshirt
1.1.6.2.8. 1pair Cabelas Revolution gauntlet glove, waterproof, Seclusion 3D
1.1.6.2.9. Small heat packs?
1.1.6.3. Legs & waist
1.1.6.3.1. 1pair silk underlayer
1.1.6.3.2. 1pair cotton thermal underlayer
1.1.6.3.3. Cabelas Lite Loft Late-Season Seclusion 3D bib
1.1.6.3.4. 1pair polypropylene boxers
1.1.6.3.5. 2pair nylon/propylene briefs
1.1.6.3.6. 2pair cotton boxers
1.1.6.4. Feet
1.1.6.4.1. Vasque Sundowner Summit GTX boots
1.1.6.4.2. 3pair polypropylene sock liners
1.1.6.4.3. 3pair Smartwool heavy winter hiking socks
1.1.6.5. Face & neck
1.1.6.5.1. 1ea Orvis gray neck gaiter, fleece
1.1.6.5.2. 1ea generic ragwool camo full-coverage balaclava
1.1.7. Clothing accessories
1.1.7.1. 2ea large waterproof vacuum zipper bags for “dry change”
1.1.8. Tent and related
1.1.8.1. Sierra Alpha CD tent
1.1.8.1.1. main body (compressed)
1.1.8.1.2. pegs
1.1.8.1.3. apron
1.1.8.1.4. expedition fly (compressed)
1.1.8.1.5. pole kit
1.1.8.1.6. seam sealer
1.1.8.1.7. internal guy lines
1.1.8.1.8. Kelty Triptease reflective external guy line
1.1.8.1.9. UCO tent lantern and reflector
1.1.9. Camp items
1.1.9.1. Timberline Bush Pilot survival hatchet
1.1.9.2. Therm-a-rest pad chair body
1.1.9.3. First-Aid kit (contents??)
1.1.9.4. Gerber folding field saw
1.1.9.5. Lights
1.1.9.5.1. Petzal Tikka Plus LED headlamp
1.1.9.5.1.1. Spare batteries (what kind?)
1.1.9.5.2. Hubbelite Pelical 2-C waterproof flashlight
1.1.9.5.2.1. 4ea spare batteries, C-cell
1.1.9.5.3. Pelican Stealthlight 4-AA flashlight
1.1.9.5.3.1. 4ea spare batteries, AA-cell
1.1.9.6. Reading material
1.1.9.6.1. small Bible
1.1.9.6.2. novel
1.1.9.7. Sunblock (very important)
1.1.9.8. Chap-stick with SPF additive
1.1.9.9. 1ea roll toilet paper
1.1.9.10. 1ea packet baby wipes
1.1.10. Sleeping items
1.1.10.1. 2pair ear plugs
1.1.10.2. 1ea Cabelas XPG 0deg sleeping bag (compressed)
1.1.10.3. 1ea Therm-a-Rest Trail Regular sleeping pad (rolled)
1.1.10.3.1. 1ea self-inflating pad repair kit
1.1.10.3.2. 1ea outer rolled-pad sheath
1.1.10.4. 1ea Therm-a-Rest camping pillow (compressed)
1.1.10.5. 1ea emergency MPI space blanket (or equivalent)
1.2. Day pack
1.2.1. Arcteryx waterproof hip pack
1.2.2. 1ea Zojirushi ½ liter vacuum canister
1.2.3. 1ea emergency compass – Silva map master
1.2.4. consider replacing loud daypack zippers with nylon-cord zipper pulls
1.2.5. 1ea small winter-camouflage parka
1.2.6. Bear mace
2. Leave in car
2.1. Clothing accessories
2.1.1. Nikwax low-temperature leather waterproofer
2.2. Sleeping items
2.2.1. Spare sleeping pad, Therm-a-Rest closed-cell, 3-season
2.3. Misc hunting accessories
2.3.1. Nikon scope/optics care kit
2.4. Travel needs
2.4.1. Colorado road atlas
2.4.2. GI-style duffel
2.4.3. E-ticket receipt
2.4.4. Drivers license
2.4.5. wallet, etc.
2.4.6. Gun case
2.4.6.1. Locks & keys
2.5. Food accessories
2.5.1. 4ea additional Jetboil canisters
 
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I see you are planning on leaving your driver's license in the car. Make sure to check and see if it is required or not that you carry your driver's license to prove that you are the same person your hunting license says you are.

I probably missed it, but don't forget the rope to hang your bear bag with either. I always carry a large washer attched to some fishing line: hold the line in one hand and toss the washer up over a limb, then tie your rope through the washer and pull it back over using the fishing line . . .it's the best way I've found to get the rope over a high branch for the bear bag.

also, a small thing of gold bond or something simlilar can do wonders for your feet and, er, other areas of your anatomy.

edited: just saw the para. cord, so you did have rope (I searched the page for rope and line . . .oops)
 
Have you weighed all this stuff yet?

One common mistake is to assume you can carry more stuff than you really can -- especially at high altitudes in rugged terrain.
 
Here's my Backpacking Elk Hunt Checklist

Load bearing equipment
Pack (internal or external frame, with waistbelt)
Canteen or plastic water bottle
Clothing
Boots
Socks (Wal Mart Hunter socks) 3pr in sealed bag
Cargo trousers
Waffle weave underwear
Flannel Shirt
Rain Gear (pocket-sized rain parka)
Goretex parka
Goretex socks
Thinsulate socks
Down vest
Extra stocking cap
Blaze orange vest
Wool gloves
Orange Hat
Bandanas (2)
Rifle and ammo
Rifle with sling
20 rounds
Scope covers
Electrician tape to cover muzzle
Jointed cleaning rod
Patches
Gun Oil
Cook kit
Pot (large can)
Pot lifter
Anti-gravity stove
Windscreen
Pot scrubber (in sealed bag)
Spoon
Plastic bowl
Plastic cup
Anti-government Lighter
Denatured alcohol for stove
Sleeping and shelter
Tarp tent
Cord (25-30 feet)
Stakes (6)
Stake Cords
Ground sheet (plastic)
Closed Cell foam pad
Sleeping bag
First Aid and sanitation
Bandaids
Molefoam
Adhesive tape
Neosporin cream
Toothbrush
Toothpaste
Toilet paper
Soap (liquid)
Bug repellent (DEET)
Water purification pills (2-part if desired)
Sunblock (as appropriate)
Navigation
Map
Compass
GPS
Miscellaneous
Flashlight
Spare batteries
Skinning knife
Gerber saw
Lightweight trash bags
Ziplock bags
Food
Oatmeal packets (three per breakfast)
Cocoa packets (two or three a day)
Freeze dried meals (one per day)


This is about 45 lbs, total, and it's a bear to carry up the mountain!
 
Leave the Bear Mace

Saw it listed twice, your .300 Mag is better than Mace - if the bear is close enough to require Mace, I'd thnk about shooting him.

Did I overlook a satellite phone or some sort of signal device?

Does all that gear really only weigh 50 pounds? You picked well if so!

Good luck,

Michael
 
I would find room for a partial roll of 3M duct tape and 3-4 bandanas. they come in handy and can be made into a compression bandage for a wound. I also keep a roll of 2" Elastikon tape in my pack- think ace wrap with adhesive. I've never needed either myself but I have fashioned an effective knee brace for someone else. I also vacuume seal a spare pair of dry socks and some toilet paper with matches. Personal pref, but I also prefer dried fruit, raisons, nuts, and jerky to some of your food choices, but thats just me.
also, toss the bic lighter and spring for a good pieso-ignition windproof butane lighter. Bics with those roller flint strikers don't work when wet.
I had a heel seperate on an almost new pair of Danners and was glad I had one of those little superglue tubes- also works great to close cuts in flesh.
otherwise, it all looks good. big and heavy, but good...
hey, use the paracord to build ya an elk snare. after he's broke to ride and pack you just use him to get down off the mountain and then shoot him when you get back to the truck.

Good luck to you and be careful.
 
Under the theory that less is more, here is what I would consider subtracting. Good luck, have fun, and don't forget to give us a debrief afterwards.

---
1.1.2.1.7. 1ea Esbit emergency stove
1.1.2.1.7.1. Spare Esbit fuel cubes
1.1.2.1.10. 1ea small can Sterno for difficult fire starting
1.1.3.4. Video camera
1.1.3.5.1. 2ea spare changes of batteries, 8ea. AA-cell
1.1.3.11. Bear mace
1.1.4.1.1.5. Bushnell Elite 20-60x80 ED glass spotting scope
1.1.4.1.1.6. Sony 24” VCT-R640 tripod
1.1.4.1.2.2.1. 1ea Dozier custom fixed blade
1.1.4.1.2.2.3. 1ea Leatherman Wave
1.1.4.1.2.3. 1pr Leather work gloves
1.1.4.1.2.4. Orange haul-harness
1.1.5.2.1. 6ea spare AAA batteries
1.1.6.1.2. 1ea Prana lightweight fleece stocking cap
1.1.6.2.2. Cabela’s Pro-Guide blaze orange camo pocketed vest
1.1.6.2.4. 1pair cotton underlayer
1.1.6.2.7. 1ea lightweight blaze orange overshirt
1.1.6.3.2. 1pair cotton thermal underlayer
1.1.6.3.4. 1pair polypropylene boxers
1.1.6.3.6. 1 pair cotton boxers
1.1.7.1. 2ea large waterproof vacuum zipper bags for “dry change”
1.1.8.1.3. apron
1.1.8.1.9. UCO tent lantern and reflector
1.1.9. Camp items
1.1.9.1. Timberline Bush Pilot survival hatchet
1.1.9.5.1.1. Spare batteries (what kind?)
1.1.9.5.2. Hubbelite Pelical 2-C waterproof flashlight
1.1.9.5.2.1. 4ea spare batteries, C-cell
1.1.9.5.3.1. 4ea spare batteries, AA-cell
1.1.9.6. Reading material
1.1.9.6.1. small Bible or 1.1.9.6.2. novel
1.2.5. 1ea small winter-camouflage parka
1.2.6. Bear mace
 
goodluck

I think, you sound like an experianced hunter and have strong common sense... therefore I think you already know you don't need all that gear. don't get me wrong I think you have good list. If I were you I would pack a smaller bag so I would cover a lot more land. Granted you just can't keep up with elk as far as moveing a lot goes, unless youknow the area like the palm of your shooting hand.

My dad used to take that much stuff with him but he had people to carry it for him in africa, that's in the 30's. If you have that kind of jux I'm sure U'll have a lot of fun... And good luck.
 
A very small pistol can serve the same purpose as the bear mace, but has wider range of uses on a hunting trip, for the same weight as a can of bear mace.

Consider LED headlamp in place of AA battery flashlight.
 
i have 0 expearence with this

so take this for what it is worth:

personelly i would drop,
1.1.4.1.1.5. Bushnell Elite 20-60x80 ED glass spotting scope
1.1.4.1.1.6. Sony 24” VCT-R640 tripod
and just rely on the binocs
also you seem to be taking a lot of batteries, can some of battery operated gear (c-cell lite) be exchanged so more of the items can "share" spare batteries?
 
Leave the bear stuff home and keep your food high and dry. Also, make SURE you have a WARM bag. That's maybe the most important thing you'll pack in! No sleep - no hunt. I have camped the first week of November in Eagle County when it got to -15* at night. I was also there, just south of Walden in 1984(?), when folks were carried out by helicopter. They left their camp, guns, horses and 4 wheel drive pickups behind. Some were able to retrieve what was left about 2 weeks later. My group left a day before the ones that got trapped.

Also, take about an extra $250 to pay the local cowboy to pack out the elk! No insult intended, but lots of people go totally un-prepared in that regard. They have no idea what they've gotten themselves into, until about 1 hr. after they have shot the elk. You'll maybe want the head and hide - that's one real hard trip. Each hind quarter is a real hard round-trip. The shoulders are one real hard trip. You might be able to put the backstraps in with the hide. Gonna bone it all out? Do a good job or the game warden will pay you a little visit.

Have a plan for what you will do to keep the meat from spoiling if the weather is warm and you kill your elk on the first day, while your brother wants to hunt until the 8th day.

There have been a lot of jokes made about taking your knife and fork into the canyon to eat the elk instead of packing it out, but it won't be that funny when you really consider it.

Best wishes. I hope you do well.
 
I have camped the first week of November in Eagle County when it got to -15* at night.

I've hunted quite a bit in Eagle County, and you're right. I have a 900 cu in down Marmot bag rated to -20 degrees. It's a bit heavy at 4 lbs, 9 ounces, but lighter than anything else in its class.

I've also successfully used a 2 lb North Face down bag with a 1 lb goretex bivvy sack over it, and slept clothed. When I do that, I look for a sheltered place to pitch my tarp. Staying out of the wind makes a big difference.
 
Wow, this is some well-thought-out feedback. :D I have a couple of questions:

Gonna bone it all out? Do a good job or the game warden will pay you a little visit.

What do you mean, would you clarify?

personelly i would drop,
1.1.4.1.1.5. Bushnell Elite 20-60x80 ED glass spotting scope

You're the second person to recommend this. I really thought big country required quite a bit of sit-and-glass action. We'll be looking over, literally, square miles of terrain. Are my little ol' 8x42 binos going to cut it, especially if we are having to hoof it everywhere we go? My thinking was that, though heavy, the spotting scope might help see detail at long range and help us to make better decisions on hike direction.

I am reducing the redundant flashlights to one LED headlamp and spare AAAs. Tent lantern is gone.

Bear mace is out, you're right, if a bear threatens, then the rifle is probably the right answer. What is the law on shooting an animal in self-defense?

Excellent suggestion on having a local outfitter pack-out the elk. Should I get the head off before leaving the animal (theft)?

Will electrician's tape over the muzzle-end affect my POI?
 
What do you mean, would you clarify?

It is against the law in Colorado to waste elk or deer. You have to take all the useable meat.

In some cases (like when it gets up to over 60 degrees in the daytime), it is best to make a cut down the backbone, peel the hide off, and cut off all the meat. Then roll the carcass over and repeat. This is because an elk is so big and so well-insulated that heat cannot migrate to the surface fast enough to prevent spoilage. Cut the meat away from the bone as quickly as possible and put it in plastic bags. But do a thorough job of it!

Are my little ol' 8x42 binos going to cut it, especially if we are having to hoof it everywhere we go?

Absolutely! The key to effective searching is technique, not power (assuming you have good glasses with a decent objective lens -- as you have.) Ease up to where you can see and sit still. Search in a pattern -- close, mid- and long-range. Look at one spot without moving the glasses and SEARCH that spot. Then move slightly to another spot.

Excellent suggestion on having a local outfitter pack-out the elk. Should I get the head off before leaving the animal (theft)?

I make my arrangements ahead of time with a guy who has pack mules. I take the rack before I leave the carcass. Be sure to mark the carcass as a waypoint on your GPS, and it doesn't hurt to have a roll of surveryor's tape in your pocket to mark your trail as you come out.

Will electrician's tape over the muzzle-end affect my POI?

No effect whatsoever. As the bullet goes down the bore, it compresses the air ahead of it and the tape is blown away before the bullet gets there. If you ever fall in the snow (and you WILL), you'll be glad you have tape on your muzzle.
 
Boning out the meat is simply cutting off the meat, packing it out, and leaving the skeleton behind. The problem is that "wanton waste" means different things to different people. Anything that is reasonably edible must be harvested and protected from spoilage. Believe it or not, the hunter that is camping over the ridge from you may think you got "his" elk, and just be looking for something to tell the warden about. (jealousy) Just make sure you don't leave any useable cuts of meat behind. If it's anything like a "trophy", most hunters will pack the head out first.

If you shoot a bear in self defense, you better have bites on your ass! :) Actually, I've hunted all over Colorado and have never had any issue with bears, but I know others that have.

Making friends, or at least making contact with the area ranchers is never a bad idea. Often they have a hired hand that will be willing to make a few extra bucks by packing out game for people. They often have the horses, equipment, and experience to make a day or two of hell into something that is workable, if maybe just a little costly. Most ranchers are hunters too, and often a little sympathetic to an "outsider" if he shows he is not gonna expect something for nothing. It's often best to establish that contact before the hunt, instead of waiting until you are in a bind. That may not be possible this trip, but you can cultivate a relationship for next time. You may be hunting on public land, but the local ranchers still control much of the access and area manpower. This is especially good to know if you kill your bull on the last evening of hunting season, and your boss is expecting you back to work the day after tomorrow.

Elk hunting in Colorado is normally not much of a "glass the biggest bull" deal. A good set of small binos to locate game, or identify bulls, is normally all you need. If you are mule deer hunting for "trophy" heads, then a spotting scope makes some sense, but elk hunting in Colorado tends to be "shoot the first legal bull". If you hold out for a "bigger" bull, you'll likely will go home empty.

Good luck. Where are you going, more precisely?
 
A good set of small binos to locate game, or identify bulls, is normally all you need.

On more than one occasion I have watched a hunter glass an area, then stand up and never notice a good bull or buck slip away through the timber -- and that buck or bull didn't even know he was there until he stood up.

So the emphasis is on good binoculars, ones you can spend a couple of hours with and not get eyestrain.
 
Vern Humphrey gave you good advice. Especially on the elk spoilage. On that hunt I mentioned, where the temp got down to -15*, an elk that we killed on the first day was still a little "soft" inside his hind quarter four days later. You'll think you're freezing to death, but an elk carcass can still spoil. The weather that time of year, can also be quite warm. It those cases, you will only have a few hours to take care of the meat before it begins to spoil.

You'll have a great time, if you plan it out. But, a lot of people only plan up through the point when they squeeze the trigger. :)
 
All that coffee paraphenalia, what happened to a handful of Folgers to a pot of water?

Water, you'll need 1gal/8pounds per day, per person.

1 pan and 1 pot.

WIND, you need a dust puffer bottle so you know EXACTLY where your scent is going.

Spotting scope: Not a nesessity unless your seriously looking for a world class trophy antlers. Otherwise you can find a bull and determine if you want him with most good quality binoculars, 10X42 should be considered a minimum.
 
I might have missed it, but you'll want some type of knive sharpener. Nothing worse than trying to dress an animal with a dull blade. Even using a Wyoming knife, you'll go through several blades. I'm not familiar with the Gerber saw. Does it have a meat blade? If not, that would be handy if you are quartering an elk.
 
might have missed it, but you'll want some type of knive sharpener. Nothing worse than trying to dress an animal with a dull blade. Even using a Wyoming knife, you'll go through several blades. I'm not familiar with the Gerber saw. Does it have a meat blade? If not, that would be handy if you are quartering an elk.

I use a Randall knife that has a stone in a pocket on the sheath that is fine for touching up the blade. There are some knives that claim they can butcher several elk without needing sharpening -- but I've never been able to prove that true!

The Gerber saw I have looks like a big jack-knife and has two blades, one for wood, and one for bone. I've cut up an elk or two with it.
 
Couple of thoughts here;
1: Coffee can be found in individual serving bags just like tea.
2: I did not see any bug repellant on your list, but maybe I missed it.
ArdisK
 
I would substitute the bear stuff and the spotting scope for an extra box of ammo and a good GI poncho.
You can scare bears off with your rifle. I personally wouldn't want to be close enough to one to use that spray.
You WILL be glad to have the poncho along.

I would also take a bone saw if you are not going to bone all the meat. Wood saws don't work very well on bone.
 
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