8 out of around 100 rounds fail to fire, primer failure ideas?

[243winxb]

bds , great photos and Info.

 

[popper]

SAAMI chamber specs for 9mm at the mouth is .381. The Glock I loaded for had a more cylindrical vs tapered chamber. Rounds that wouldn't fit in an XD would fit the Glock. If you have crimped excessively, the case may not HS properly, drop too far into the chamber and appear to cause light primer strikes. You could check this by dropping working vs non-working rounds into the barrel and miking the 'HS' depth. Just a thought.

 

[1SOW]

The .3765 -.377, .378 taper crimp you mentioned should all go bang easily in a Glock

 

[Machine154]

bds - thanks for taking the time to put up some pictures. I appreciate it. In return, I made it my next step to check this out. My expectation would be that if this were the problem, that it would be more random, but I am not leaving any stone unturned.

It turns out that my comp. gun had a shiny end, but a little bit of grime around the outer surfaces. Pretty clean overall, though, compared to the last time I took it apart to clean it. The backup gun that also wouldn't shoot the same rounds was pretty much like new. One of the rounds of these particular ones was shot from that gun.

Comp gun:

Backup:

Thanks, again. The search will continue...

 

[wally]

How old are your primers?

Winchester primers I had from the Bill Clinton era had a pretty high dud rate ~10 years later.

 

[LiveLife]

Machine154, if your striker tube bottoms are indeed clean without any buildup (both Comp and BUG) and the striker pins/springs are in good condition, could you try some other primers and see if you get inconsistent primer ignition?

I normally seat them .004" below flush.

 

[Machine154]

I took one more step tonight to disassemble 2 bad rounds and also 2 random rounds from the same general timeframe of loading. Please take a look at them and see what you think. I don't have any experience in disassembling aged loaded ammo and looking inside. The 2 bad rounds look like they are more dark and don't have the visible reddish paper-like material in there. I didn't want to disassemble anything else right now, since I might want to do more checks on the remainder.

bad, left - random one, right

bad, left - random one, right

bad

random

I'd be interested in hearing others' opinions on whether there is anything to this at all. Has anyone taken apart old ammo? This stuff is maybe 10 months old.

 

[LiveLife]

Looks like the priming compound on the left has deteriorated. The priming compound on the right seems to be missing all together showing just the anvil inside the primer cup.

That would explain why some of the primers did not ignite.

That's all I can tell from the pictures.

 

[chubcobear]

Same problem, same brand primer

Different gun, PT145.... CCI primers worked fine. Winchester primers failed about 10 per hundred. Some fired second and third/fourth strike, most did not ever work. Federal factory rounds, CCI primered reloads (exact same components & cases) worked fine on same day.
It was kinda mystery until now. Maybe bad batch of primers?

 

[243winxb]

The primer photos would seem to explain it.

These are particular rounds that won't fire each time I try them.

Or could be a Headspace problem, to much taper crimp or case is to short. (trim Length) http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Pistol/9mm%20Luger%20-%209mm%20Luger%20+P.pdf

 

[LiveLife]

Although this is an old thread, I thought these close up photos of primer cups may add to the thread. I wonder if the OP ever got to the "root cause" of primer misfire?

Winchester, Tula, PMC and Magtech primer cups showing different colored priming compound seal/sealants:

Primer anvils with their respective sealant cups.

 

[GLOOB]

And no, there is no "sleeve" inside the striker tube. There is a "step" in tube cylinder about 2/3 way down that would capture the end of the captured spring

That step is the top of the sleeve, AKA channel liner.

http://www.lonewolfdist.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=381&CAT=137

Here's what I use to clean Glock striker channels. Custom jag from a nail. The head was too small in diameter, so I hammered it to make it wider. Then I squared it up with a file. With a cotton patch over the top, it's a tight fit to the striker channel. I just spin a patch on the bottom of the channel with some Hoppe's on it. The tight fit and the sharp corners on top ensure the patch comes back out with the jag.

http://i688.photobucket.com/albums/vv241/gloob27x/SAM_0184.jpg
http://i688.photobucket.com/albums/vv241/gloob27x/SAM_0186.jpg

 

[kingcheese]

Any chance ofbad powder in those rounds?

 

[LiveLife]

That step is the top of the sleeve, AKA channel liner.

Oops, I stand corrected.

 

[Slamfire]

Sealant should not make as much of a difference to primer sensitivity as priming compound composition. I also believe that cup thickness and hardness have a large influence on overall primer sensitivity.

Still, it may be possible that these striker fired pistols don’t have that robust of ignition system.
“Percussion Primers, Design Requirements”, http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA092511

is a best practices document for pyrotechnic devices (think bombs and grenades). The best practices advice was to design the mechanism to impact the primer with an energy level twice as high as the “all fire” requirement of the primer.

I really doubt most pistol mechanisms have that much energy.

Offcenter firing pin hits increase misfire rates and so does improper primer seating. The anvil has to be firmly seated and pushed into the primer cake.

 

[LiveLife]

Any chance of bad powder in those rounds

If powder was bad and primer fired, I think squib round would have occurred.

I am still guessing weak primer strike due to dirty striker channel or weak striker spring.

 

[Machine154]

Here's what I came up with, which I posted to a new thread:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=661193

In hindsight, I wish I did larger quantities, but I also didn't want a lot of waste. Take a look and let me know what you think about my method and whether conclusions are justified. I have since stopped using case lube on my pistol rounds and am more diligent to clean off rifle rounds after sizing.

 

[tglazie]

Have you tried seating the primers on the misfired rounds deeper with your seating tool? See if you get movement and try them again. Great thread by the way, glad to see so many knowledgeable people sharing their experience.

whoa- am I the only one who has a serious problem with this idea?

Please do not do this unless you pull the bullet and powder first. then you can try to reseat and see if you can get the primer to fire (no need to reassemble the cartridge, you are just testing the primer)

Please do not try reseating the primer in a live round.

 

[LiveLife]

I have been having an increasing problem of rounds not firing in my Glock(s) ... They fail to fire on second attempts as well on the 5 or so that I tried. At first I was thinking hard primers and then someone suggested high primers (they aren't visibly sticking up. The person suggesting high primers changed his mind after witnessing failed rounds even on 2nd tries.

Considering the failures are showing up in both guns (and I recently cleaned the striker pin channel in the well-used one), I am entirely convinced now that this is an ammo issue.

Here is my load:

9mm indoor range brass, cleaned in corn cob media
Dillon case lube and Dillon 550 press
Winchester small primers
4.25 gr W231
124 gr FMJ


Since it seems to be getting worse as I dig into my reserves I am starting to wonder about contamination of primers ... I have read that Dillon case lube is safe for primers and powder ... I have decided to do a controlled test with Dillon case lube and primers. Today I sprayed 2 shots of case lube directly on 10 primers. Those go into a sealed plastic bag as well as the remainder of the pack into a separate bag. I will wait 3 months and then load and try them. In the meantime, does anyone have other ideas of ways to try to diagnose the problem? Anything I can do by taking the existing failed rounds apart?

[ 3 months later ]

Here's what I came up with, which I posted to a new thread:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=661193

In hindsight, I wish I did larger quantities, but I also didn't want a lot of waste. Take a look and let me know what you think about my method and whether conclusions are justified. I have since stopped using case lube on my pistol rounds.

Sigh, I guess it pays to read the OP carefully ... so as to not miss the details and be barking up the wrong tree.

So the final conclusion is that you did not experience any misfires with your control rounds that did not have any case lube on the primers but you still experienced misfires with rounds you sprayed case lube on the primers?

 

[Owen]

aftermarket strikers for glocks sometimes have round firing pins going through the rectangular firing pin hole, so no rectangular mark. from the light strikes I've seen (caused by insufficient crimp) the fp indent with the squaried FP will often be round.

Also, 9mm generally headspaces on the rim, not the case mouth, despite the design.

 

[Machine154]

Sigh, I guess it pays to read the OP carefully ... so as to not miss the details and be barking up the wrong tree.

So the final conclusion is that you did not experience any misfires with your control rounds that did not have any case lube on the primers but you still experienced misfires with rounds you sprayed case lube on the primers?

bds...
So the final conclusion is that you did not experience any misfires with your control rounds that did not have any case lube on the primers but you still experienced misfires with rounds you sprayed case lube on the primers?

Correct, but interestingly only in the presence of BOTH powder and case lube did I have failures to fire. If my results are conclusive, despite the small sample size, then it appears that the combination of Dillon case lube and W231 powder will contaminate Winchester primers.