TCB in TN
Member
If hating to see an old man beaten by a young punk POS constitutes a hate crime, then I am guilty as charged.
91 year old WW2 Vet beaten viciously for car.
- Thread starter Kali Endgame
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joab
Member
I'd like to see the statutes that prevent a citizen from intervening in the commission of a violent crime that would most certainly result in death or grave bodily injury.
I'm sorry but to me this is simply an unsupported excuse not to do the right thing
That would certainly be something to keep in mind if you ever find yourself observing a situation like this.
And another good reason to draw and not get tangled up with the obvious target
Kacerdias
Member
I think I just threw up a little.
I don't know much about deadly force laws in Michigan but as I read Texas law drawing would have been justified since A) disparity of force was present: 91 year old physically frail man vs a 20 something healthy scumbag, B) repeated blows to the head like that CAN EASILY be lethal: this is now deadly force, and C) Texas law allows you to use deadly force on behalf of another if you would have been justified in using it if you were in the victim's shoes. Robbery + Assault & Battery - either one qualifies.
All that aside, if ventillating that creep on the spot means I'd be arrested and charged with murder then I would GLADLY do the time. I concider it more than a fair trade for this vet's service to the country. It's men like him that ensured the US and most of Europe aren't speaking German right now. Never forget that.
I don't know much about deadly force laws in Michigan but as I read Texas law drawing would have been justified since A) disparity of force was present: 91 year old physically frail man vs a 20 something healthy scumbag, B) repeated blows to the head like that CAN EASILY be lethal: this is now deadly force, and C) Texas law allows you to use deadly force on behalf of another if you would have been justified in using it if you were in the victim's shoes. Robbery + Assault & Battery - either one qualifies.
All that aside, if ventillating that creep on the spot means I'd be arrested and charged with murder then I would GLADLY do the time. I concider it more than a fair trade for this vet's service to the country. It's men like him that ensured the US and most of Europe aren't speaking German right now. Never forget that.
Stevie-Ray
Member
Detroit is a sewer, surely, but helping in this case probably would have gotten you some type of award for bravery from hizzoner Kwame Kilpatrick. I've seen that happen before. Had I been one of that crowd, that punk would have gotten a screamin kick in the spine. That would have been too easy as the perp never looked behind him. It would have been a pleasure.
coelacanth
Member
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- Mar 5, 2007
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I think gyp_c2 had it right. . . . .
look at the video again and you can't help but come to the conclusion that most if not all of that crowd knew each other. They are all complicit in that crime whether they did or not. If you come upon an accident with injuries and you drive away you are guilty of the crime of failure to stop and render aid. If you stand around and watch while and old man is beaten senseless by a street punk and do nothing you are an accessory to the crime in my judgement.
look at the video again and you can't help but come to the conclusion that most if not all of that crowd knew each other. They are all complicit in that crime whether they did or not. If you come upon an accident with injuries and you drive away you are guilty of the crime of failure to stop and render aid. If you stand around and watch while and old man is beaten senseless by a street punk and do nothing you are an accessory to the crime in my judgement.
Ghengis Kahn
Member
"I don't think beating him to death would be justified. I leave judgment up to God, the only reason I'd step in is because that guy is a direct threat to the vet. I don't dish out punishment, I just try to stop crimes in the act or in preemptive strikes.
If you're willing to kill someone for trying to pick a fight with you then so be it; you'll be carted off to jail. I'll defend myself if necessary, but my intent is always to survive; not necessarily to kill or injure anyone else. I don't think it's bad to do either of those things if there's no other way though."
After further review, the call stands. Drag him off the poor guy, pin his ass onto the ground, and beat the hell out of him, break every bone in his ****ing body, until you're damn sure he's dead. The cops got a problem with that? They can ****ing deal with it. In War 2 aiding Jews was illegal in Germany. Men with character don't give a flying **** about "law", only about whats right, since the two are often not the same thing.
If you're willing to kill someone for trying to pick a fight with you then so be it; you'll be carted off to jail. I'll defend myself if necessary, but my intent is always to survive; not necessarily to kill or injure anyone else. I don't think it's bad to do either of those things if there's no other way though."
After further review, the call stands. Drag him off the poor guy, pin his ass onto the ground, and beat the hell out of him, break every bone in his ****ing body, until you're damn sure he's dead. The cops got a problem with that? They can ****ing deal with it. In War 2 aiding Jews was illegal in Germany. Men with character don't give a flying **** about "law", only about whats right, since the two are often not the same thing.
ArfinGreebly
Moderator Emeritus
G Kahn
Dude.
Welcome to THE HIGH ROAD where we generally avoid outright calls for anyone's death.
It's understood that sometimes violence may be required to interdict a violent crime.
The banger is scum, and we are pretty much all on board with that.
There's a natural impulse to want to punish that kind of thing.
There is, however, a marked difference between STOPPING a crime and PUNISHING a crime.
Do what has to be done to STOP the crime.
Leave judgement and punishment up to the guys who have that job.
Our job, as citizens, is to avoid and where necessary actively prevent crime.
Yeah, a guy like that is easy to want to harm, but justice is a different domain.
Now, it's completely understandable if stopping the crime results in some collateral damage. Hey, stuff happens.
When the people we've hired to sweep up these messes arrive, that's when we change hats and become good witnesses. Good enough that Mr. Toughguy banger will have the opportunity to explain himself to his "peers" during his extended stay at the Hotel Greybar.
Sometimes, when stepping in to prevent a murder, one is attacked by the would-be murderer and one must perforce defend oneself and, depending on where you live, there are various acceptable levels of force that may be employed in 1) the defense of one's self and 2) the defense of another.
But the primary objective is to STOP the crime.
Dude.
Welcome to THE HIGH ROAD where we generally avoid outright calls for anyone's death.
It's understood that sometimes violence may be required to interdict a violent crime.
The banger is scum, and we are pretty much all on board with that.
There's a natural impulse to want to punish that kind of thing.
There is, however, a marked difference between STOPPING a crime and PUNISHING a crime.
Do what has to be done to STOP the crime.
Leave judgement and punishment up to the guys who have that job.
Our job, as citizens, is to avoid and where necessary actively prevent crime.
Yeah, a guy like that is easy to want to harm, but justice is a different domain.
Now, it's completely understandable if stopping the crime results in some collateral damage. Hey, stuff happens.
When the people we've hired to sweep up these messes arrive, that's when we change hats and become good witnesses. Good enough that Mr. Toughguy banger will have the opportunity to explain himself to his "peers" during his extended stay at the Hotel Greybar.
Sometimes, when stepping in to prevent a murder, one is attacked by the would-be murderer and one must perforce defend oneself and, depending on where you live, there are various acceptable levels of force that may be employed in 1) the defense of one's self and 2) the defense of another.
But the primary objective is to STOP the crime.
Jorg Nysgerrig
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- 7,822
I bet if you ask that veteran whether he believed he was fighting for an America where the ideals of justice and due process are valued or one where a mob-mentality of vigilante justice ruled, his answer would be the former.
He's probably also be ashamed of your comments, despite fighting for your right to say them.
While the attacker should have been stopped, that should have been the goal. To stop the attack, not retribution.
collateral
Member
this video honestly made me want to throw up.
People who attack the elderly are cowards, nothing more.
That scumbags obviously has a pathetic life if he needs to pummel an old vet and take his car to feel like a man.
He should be locked up, and never released. Crimes like this are unforgiveable.
People who attack the elderly are cowards, nothing more.
That scumbags obviously has a pathetic life if he needs to pummel an old vet and take his car to feel like a man.
He should be locked up, and never released. Crimes like this are unforgiveable.
It disgusts me that the lowlifes target the elderly like that. It also disgusts me that people won't act. I remember back in the 80's when actress Rebecca Shaefer was stabbed to death with a gang of people standing around watching. It's the same thing that happened when the shooter was on the train shooting then reloading then shooting some more. Nobody will act! It's like they're all waiting for someone else to do something first. Though they'd probably still stand back and let the poor brave SOB fight a solo fight rather than help anyway.
Davo
Member
We raise sheep, and then wonder why they act that way. Sadly we are taught that acting like a sheep dog will get us in trouble. The wolves win.
In my years on the street as a medic, nothing has upset me more then witnessing the pain, and anguish that these bastards cause our elderly.
In southern Kali, home invasions against the elderly are common place, especially old ladies. I hate this.
In my years on the street as a medic, nothing has upset me more then witnessing the pain, and anguish that these bastards cause our elderly.
In southern Kali, home invasions against the elderly are common place, especially old ladies. I hate this.
I hate it too. The cowardly bastards are always raping and mugging elderly ladies here. My mom is elderly and becoming quite frail, so I worry about her a lot. Of course she wields a mean revolver and has had a CHL since they first came out, so I pity the idiot who tries.
geekWithA.45
Moderator Emeritus
[moderatorMode]
Listen up.
As the keepers and bearers of arms, we each individually have a great deal of power.
With that power comes responsibility.
One of those responsibilities is knowing the moral, ethical and legal constraints on the defense of yourself or others, which does NOT extend to being judge, jury and executioner.
Those story lines are for the ignoranti who write for Hollywood, and those who really need some more time for reflection on the responsibilities that come with being and armed citizen.
We hold ourselves to higher standards than hollywood and yahoos.
We are responsible armed citizens, not vigilantes.
Step up, or step out.
[/moderatorMode]
Listen up.
As the keepers and bearers of arms, we each individually have a great deal of power.
With that power comes responsibility.
One of those responsibilities is knowing the moral, ethical and legal constraints on the defense of yourself or others, which does NOT extend to being judge, jury and executioner.
Those story lines are for the ignoranti who write for Hollywood, and those who really need some more time for reflection on the responsibilities that come with being and armed citizen.
We hold ourselves to higher standards than hollywood and yahoos.
We are responsible armed citizens, not vigilantes.
Step up, or step out.
[/moderatorMode]
straightShot
Member
Sick, sick, sick.
Beating on a defenseless elderly man is simply sick.
Beating on a defenseless elderly man is simply sick.
joab
Member
Point of clarification
The disparity of force would have to be between you and the BG not between the BG and the vet in order for you to use that as justification for drawing or shooting
If you are a 200 lb man and see a 91year old vet beating a kid with a stick you would have a hard time using disparity of force as justification for shooting the vet
Tis was a man willing and capable of inflicting a brutal attack against a helpless person
The crowds reaction would lead a reasonable person to suspect that they may be complicit in the attack
That would justify, in my mind, disparity of force
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hankdatank1362
Member
Those were his "homies" standing around watching.
As it stands now, the best thing we can hope for is that the vet has a 300lb grandson (with a penchant for man-lovin') who happens to reside in the same prison as the guy who attacked his gramps is going to.
As it stands now, the best thing we can hope for is that the vet has a 300lb grandson (with a penchant for man-lovin') who happens to reside in the same prison as the guy who attacked his gramps is going to.
Folks,
We're not a lynch mob and acting like one gains no one anything.
Defending a third party who is under threat of death or grave bodily injury may be a positive defense to prosecution, but it's a decision every individual has to make. It's not to be done in the heat of the moment and it's not a decision that should be left to the last moment.
Acting to beat or kill a criminal after the threat has been stopped is itself criminal behavior and, again, does no one any good. Holding them, sure, but not "metting out justice"
.
Consider that by acting after the threat to the old gentleman has stopped you take yourself out of the equation for all future opportunities to provide help to anyone ever again because you've put yourself in jail. How do you benefit, how does society benefit and how does the next guy who needs your help benefit if you gave in to anger and the urge for revenge?
We're not a lynch mob and acting like one gains no one anything.
Defending a third party who is under threat of death or grave bodily injury may be a positive defense to prosecution, but it's a decision every individual has to make. It's not to be done in the heat of the moment and it's not a decision that should be left to the last moment.
Acting to beat or kill a criminal after the threat has been stopped is itself criminal behavior and, again, does no one any good. Holding them, sure, but not "metting out justice"
. Consider that by acting after the threat to the old gentleman has stopped you take yourself out of the equation for all future opportunities to provide help to anyone ever again because you've put yourself in jail. How do you benefit, how does society benefit and how does the next guy who needs your help benefit if you gave in to anger and the urge for revenge?
sadhvacman
Member
my granddad is 90 years old and a wwII vet. That s--- absolutely enrages me! That gets me as upset as sex crimes on precious little children does. I can promise you this, he would have had to have killed me had I been there. The only honorable thing to do would have been to beat the ever lovin' s--- out of that big bad gangsta. what a tough guy!! I am so pissed off, I knew I shouldnt have watched it!!
DigitalWarrior
Member
(urban legend)There was a professor once who told his class that he was going to prove the non-existance of God. He said that faith was stupid, and if there was a God, God would knock him off the podium in the next five minutes. About two minutes later a student gets up walks up to the professor and punches him in the face, then kicks him off the podium. Professor says "what are you doing?" Student says "I am a US Marine, God was busy, so he put me here to take care of this for him."(/urban legend)
There really was a danger to the Vet's life. I would have stopped it as quickly as I knew how.
Semper Fi
DigitalWarrior
PS It would be the funniest comedy skit ever to see a trial where they accuse me of a hate crime... I am a prince Hall Mason. That idea gives me the giggles.
sterling180
Member
It is absolutely disgraceful,that a 92 year old person doesn't feel safe in society anymore,without fear of attack.People like that stupid dim****,who attacked that man,should have the crap kicked out of them by the cops.It seems that in most of western society thesedays,that the law is on the criminals side.My grandma never lived to that age and she was very frail at 85 years of age,so that old timer,at least was in excellent shape,to have survived that savage beating,where he could have died
I hope that someone somewhere gives that punk a good 'roughing up'.
I hope that someone somewhere gives that punk a good 'roughing up'.
I don't think it would be a good idea to beat this guy up, I mean what purpose does it serve? Vengeance?
What really concerns me are two points.
First even most criminals usually do not beat up old people, disabled people, children or women(at least pregnant women or women with little children) this folk apparently didn't care about that. And second these goddamn "good" witnesses standing near by and doing nothing. When you witness such an incident you have got the choice between 911 and 1911 and it should be clear what do first.
What really concerns me are two points.
First even most criminals usually do not beat up old people, disabled people, children or women(at least pregnant women or women with little children) this folk apparently didn't care about that. And second these goddamn "good" witnesses standing near by and doing nothing. When you witness such an incident you have got the choice between 911 and 1911 and it should be clear what do first.
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