Heading that way now! going to set to 1.060, do another 20 and check results. Thanks.
9mm + Budget Equipment = Unreasonable Results?
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Heading that way now! going to set to 1.060, do another 20 and check results. Thanks.
Charlie98
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That's a huge percentage failure rate. When I first started, I'd get pretty concerned if a had 4-6 failures out of 100.
A 25% failure to plunk would have me starting over from scratch setting up my dies. I learned to load on a Lee Classic Cast turret and a Dillon 550, but my first press was a Hornady LNL AP progressive...so I was pretty careful setting up
You've mentioned that you're loading on a Lee turret and using Lee dies. Curious as to which turret and which bullets you're loading.
When you first start reloading, using a single headstamp of cases can make diagnosing your issues easier by limiting the variables
If the budge is uniform around the base, it can be indicative of early/over crimping.
If it is only to one side, it is indicative of not starting the bullet straight into the case mouth.
Have you backed off your Seating die far enough that it isn't crimping while you are seating the bullet
jmorris
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Depends on how well the variables are controlled and what sample size we are talking about. If you mean 100% perfection throughout your lifetime, I would say that’s unreasonable.
Probably because the lead is too short in the barrel (known issue with CZ’s). You can take it to a gunsmith and have him cut the throat/lead, with a decent chamber reamer or just seat your bullets deeper (be sure to reduce your powder charge and work back up though).
My last large run of 1600 rounds of 9mm had 2 failures to plunk and 1 upside down primer...without using a Lee FCD
If you're getting your failure rate while using a FCD, there is something else in your process that needs to be addressed.
I do use a FCD with rounds that don't pass my case gauge...in my single stage press. Those rounds go into my practice ammo bucket. If they won't pass the gauge after being run through the FCD, I throw them away
Frequently, when handloading you will get cases that do not look like factory ammunition. The sizing die resizes the cases a bit smaller than spec and the bullet makes the case end look a bot too large. This makes a condition frequently called the “wasp waste”. These cases should “plunk test” just fine and perform just fine.
Lee reloading dies will perform just fine. But the FCD die for handgun cases is a solution looking for a problem for the most part. All you would need for 9mm is a taper crimp die if you do not want to crimp in the seating die. This I recommend.
You can remove the sizing ring from a Lee FCD die which then makes it just a taper crimp die.
Reloading 9mm is easy, don’t over think it.
Lee reloading dies will perform just fine. But the FCD die for handgun cases is a solution looking for a problem for the most part. All you would need for 9mm is a taper crimp die if you do not want to crimp in the seating die. This I recommend.
You can remove the sizing ring from a Lee FCD die which then makes it just a taper crimp die.
Reloading 9mm is easy, don’t over think it.
jmorris
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If it is uniform around the case, it’s probably because you have a die that sizes the case more than necessary. You are using an “under size” die vs a regular size die. On the 9mm, you could just back it off the shell holder a bit. Because the case is tapered, you can keep from squishing the base so small it looks like a coke bottle, once you seat a bullet.
If it’s ok in everything except the CZ, this isn’t the area to be wasting time in. If you still think it might be, seat the bullet .010” deeper (making the bulge even larger but moving the ogive further back from the rifling) and see how they do.
NMexJim
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Are you loading for more than one pistol? Especially a CZ. Plunking in one barrel does not guarantee that it will fit in another barrel. When loading for different pistols, you really need a case gage. If it fits the gage, it will fit the pistols.
N555
Member
20 rounds at a deeper seat did the trick all 20 plunked, even ones that "felt" crooked. Makes total sense, just actually surprised by the inconsistency in the first place at the previous depth. I backed the charge down 2 tenths just in case and will test these out on the next trip out. As mentioned above, I was probably wasting my thoughts and time trying to get the perfect 100% plunk out of this CZ since previous loads cycled fine.
Some Case gauges suck. At least the EGW one I have. I can demonstrate in a video of the majority of the ones that plunk in the CZ barrel will still not pass the EGW case gauge.
the CZ is the tightest. What plunks in this will probably wiggle in my service pistols.
Some Case gauges suck. At least the EGW one I have. I can demonstrate in a video of the majority of the ones that plunk in the CZ barrel will still not pass the EGW case gauge.
the CZ is the tightest. What plunks in this will probably wiggle in my service pistols.
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To the OP, a few months back, I had a related question about developing seating depth for the RMR nukes, which have no published load data. Was referred to the following link, which outlines process to determine what max OAL can be. Process has served me well and now days when I get a new bullet, this is the first thing I do. Find max OAL. The plunk test, while certainly helpful, is a blind test. It only tells you it will chamber. This other test lets you know exactly how far you can go and still chamber......or conversely, when it doesn't chamber (or plunk), how much further you need to seat the bullet so it will.
How to Determine Max OAL for a CZ/Dan Wesson Pistol
How to Determine Max OAL for a CZ/Dan Wesson Pistol
czfirearms.us
GeoDudeFlorida
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As I have progressed down the 9mm rabbit hole, another thing I have focused on as much as OAL is the depth the bullet base is seated to. As you go thru the process outlined above for determining max OAL for each particular bullet / barrel combination, the other hard stop he mentions is the load data OAL is the MINIMUM. Seat deeper for that load and you may run into the pressure danger zone. A short, compact bullet like the RMR nuke using data from a bullet with long nose is usually safe. The opposite is not.
Mentally, it is hard to keep track of all those moving parts, so I went so far as to graph what happens when these sample bullets were seated using same depth stop on the seating die. I know what my MAX is for each bullet when fired thru this barrel. As long as the OAL is less than my MAX, I'm ok on that end. Of these five bullets, there is only load data (OAL) for two of them. The XTP and Sierra. With both of those seated further out than load data OAL was for them, I should be OK using XTP or Sierra load data, and even more so when the base of these other bullets are seated further out still. The nose runs wild and goes where it goes.......and as long as it does not approach MAX OAL, it doesn't matter where they go.
Mentally, it is hard to keep track of all those moving parts, so I went so far as to graph what happens when these sample bullets were seated using same depth stop on the seating die. I know what my MAX is for each bullet when fired thru this barrel. As long as the OAL is less than my MAX, I'm ok on that end. Of these five bullets, there is only load data (OAL) for two of them. The XTP and Sierra. With both of those seated further out than load data OAL was for them, I should be OK using XTP or Sierra load data, and even more so when the base of these other bullets are seated further out still. The nose runs wild and goes where it goes.......and as long as it does not approach MAX OAL, it doesn't matter where they go.
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jmorris
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Case Gauges can be useful and actually tell you more than just a plunk test; however, they have no rifling or any lead into the rifling that’s cut. So they can pass rounds that won’t plunk, like the ones the OP has that plunk in his other 9mm barrels but not the short lead CZ one.
Why a successful plunk is important setting dies, while a case gauge might be better in production.
jmorris
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The good news is you located the problem.
This is the reason I suggested, reducing your load, and working back up, when you shorten OAL.
They could have given us a bit more information than they did but is still worthy of caution when .030” could more than double operating pressures.
Be safe.
the extractor can and will leave a burr on the case which will leave the cartridge just up a bit when you plunk it. or it will stick and not fall back out. usually you can find it with your fingers and just remove quick with a piece of sand paper.
I had nothing but trouble trying to seat 9 mm straight with the Lee seating die, crushing them with the FCD didn’t help.
The Lee seating die stem is poorly designed imo, and does not fit many bullet styles, causing tilted bullets that don’t gauge properly.
I now use a Redding comp die and have no more trouble, but any good brand of standard seating die will work better.
The Redding comp die is getting ridiculously expensive, but Hornady, RCBS and Redding all make regular seating dies for $30 or less.
I still use the Lee sizing die, but the rest of the Lee 4 die ‘deluxe’ set has been retired.
The Lee seating die stem is poorly designed imo, and does not fit many bullet styles, causing tilted bullets that don’t gauge properly.
I now use a Redding comp die and have no more trouble, but any good brand of standard seating die will work better.
The Redding comp die is getting ridiculously expensive, but Hornady, RCBS and Redding all make regular seating dies for $30 or less.
I still use the Lee sizing die, but the rest of the Lee 4 die ‘deluxe’ set has been retired.
Excellent point. 45acp cases conspire against me that precise way. Doesn’t take much of a nick.
I use the Lee U die for all of my 9mm reloads. There is a visible bulge at the base of the bullet but they all plunk and shoot fine. Be aware that there is an internal step in some 9mm brass to prevent bullet set back. If a bullet is seated deeper than this step, it will leave a bulge that will prevent plunking. I examine all 9mm empties and discard all that have the step. 9mm brass is too plentiful to worry over a few discards.
This is how I feel about the Lee Seating Die at least for 9mm. The stem has alot of lateral movement. Its the only 9mm seating die I have experience with, maybe others are similar but I think its too much movement. I'm going to venture into another brand for this.
Is that what happens with the undersized die? Then, shouldnt or couldn’t all users back off a bit?
As others have said, it’s expensive, but the Redding competition micrometer adjustable is excellent. I switched from Lee to Redding for both 9mm & 45acp. I’m a low volume, single stage loader though and don’t use different bullet types.
IWAC
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I had some of the same problems with my revolver. . I found I was slightly overcrimping, causing a small bulge that was not noticeable. I readjusted my crimping die, and that fixed the problem. As much as I hate trimming brass, I do now, for more consistency.
GeoDudeFlorida
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One of the things I learned working in machine shops: if you don’t have confidence in your equipment, replace it with something that makes you feel better. It just don’’t matter how much success someone else has with the same gear, if you don’t trust it, don’t use it.
My recommendation is to go out and buy the most expensive set of dies available and amortize the cost across the many thousands of rounds you wil reload with them, content that they must be good and safe. No, I am not kidding or being snarky, I’m absolutely serious and have no doubt that is the direction you will end up going, eventually. Save the time and worry and just buy some “First Class” gear and get it over with.
FWIW: WAAAAY back when the Earth was young - and so was I - I worked my way up to the inspection cage at a fairly prestigious machine shop that did a lot of aerospace development work. We had a Starrett rep roll through on his regular run and he sold a really sweet depth mic’ set to one of the tool guys. He was real proud of it - but he could NEVER get a decent measurement and scrapped a few tools trying. He got so frustrated he ended up giving away the whole kit to a lowly, poverty stricken redneck who just got promoted into the inspection cage.
I never had trouble one from that set and the tooling guy never had a problem with the Mitsotoyu depth mic’s he bought to replace the Starrett’s.
Confidence in your tools makes a huge difference in how well they perform.
Variations in brass is a common reason for variations in overall length. Thicker, dryer, cleaner or harder brass will not let the bullet seat as easily. Leaving it 2 or 3 thou long. Just seat a little shorter. Or sort brass and fine tune all brass prep if you want to hold real tight overall length.
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