9mm NATO ammo made in Germany, ballistics?

[peacebutready]

I came across 9mm NATO made in Germany. Is it loaded the same as our stuff? See link below if curious.

Our latest 124 NATO ammo only goes 1140 fps according to Winchester. That seems like only average pressure.


http://www.sgammo.com/product/surpl...ato-124-grain-fmj-ammo-made-men-germany-men9b

 

[v35]

Now there is some real man's ammo.



I have some. Haven't shot it yet.

 

[BSA1]

Warning! Warning! Warning! Will Robinson.

Beware of crimped primers. I was considering buying a bunch of Winchester 9mm NATO until I read about them having crimped primers.

I am considering Federal 124 gr. instead.

 

[Panzerschwein]

True NATO spec rounds aren't that much more punchy than standard pressure 9 mike mike loads.

 

[judgedelta]

Good price if you don't plan to reload. I wouldn't fool with 9mm crimped brass. May be loaded for submachine guns, could be high pressure. The headstamp doesn't appear to have the NATO circle/cross; I wonder why they call it NATO?

 

[tark]

Good point judgedelta. If it is loaded to Nato specs for possible Nato use it should have the cross in the circle. This stuff sounds a little too good to be true....you know the saying.

Crimped in primers ARE a pain... they're ok once you get rid of the crimp. But that in itself requires a lot of effort and time. I don't mess with them.

 

[MAKster]

Hard to tell if these is the same ammo, but this MEN 124 grain FMJ is going 1247 fps which seems hot to me.
http://www.men-defencetec.de/en/pro...l]=129&cHash=d9a7e41aaf78cd4eef27c062bf37cca4

 

[MIL-DOT]

Sportsmanguide has recently been selling some Sellier & Bellot 9mm in plain white boxes, in both 115 and 124 gr. I've been reading elsewhere that this white box stuff is actually a military contract over-run, and much of it has the NATO cross on the headstamp, while some has MEN and various 3-digit numbers, and some is marked FNB (Fabrigue Nationale Belgique).
Using the free shipping codes they're always sending out, this stuff comes in just a shade over $10 a box, delivered, so it's no surprise it keeps selling out quickly.

 

[MIL-DOT]

Hard to tell if these is the same ammo, but this MEN 124 grain FMJ is going 1247 fps which seems hot to me.
http://www.men-defencetec.de/en/pro...l]=129&cHash=d9a7e41aaf78cd4eef27c062bf37cca4

It's curious that the stat sheet says the bullet is made of lead and steel. I know the German-owned RWS/Geco pistol ammo has bi-metal jackets, maybe that's what they mean by "steel".
The video in the OP says the MEN ammo has magnetic projectiles, it looks to be the same stuff.

 

[M1key]

The video said primer pocket sealant...didn't see anything about crimp.

M

 

[FL-NC]

Probably designed for MP5 specs. A gun like a Glock or HK USP wouldn't mind though.

 

[PabloJ]

Hard to say w/o seeing original packaging, but it should be loaded to C.I.P standard which for 9x19 is +P. Was/is in EU submachine gun ammo laded to higher pressure? MAN makes good buses so perhaps their ammo is also good. Steyr makes very good dump trucks, rifles and handguns so perhaps MAN also warrants attention. I do not know. I would rather pull trigger on EU or West German ammo than on obscure US brand loaded in some "barn".

 

[Merle1]

Warning! Warning! Warning! Will Robinson.

Beware of crimped primers. I was considering buying a bunch of Winchester 9mm NATO until I read about them having crimped primers.

I am considering Federal 124 gr. instead.

Mine does not have crimped primers.

 

[Merle1]

True NATO spec rounds aren't that much more punchy than standard pressure 9 mike mike loads.

Typically they are 10 ~ 15% more than standard 9mm - not quite up to +P specs.

 

[jmr40]

All of the NATO spec ammo I've seen is rated to at least 1200 fps from a 5" barrel with 124 gr ammo. I have some +P 124 gr Speer ammo that clocks 1250 fps from my 4.5" G-19.


I don't see anything listing the speeds in the link, but generally 9mm European ammo is loaded faster than USA production.

 

[PabloJ]

I don't see reason to order the stuff when one can get Perfecta from Walmart. You get fresh ammo not something stored in warehouse for years.

 

[MIL-DOT]

I don't see reason to order the stuff when one can get Perfecta from Walmart. You get fresh ammo not something stored in warehouse for years.

I've had good service out of Perfecta, in several calibers, but it also seems to get more than it's fair share of negative reports, including being inconsistently loaded. It's also very much a "budget" ammo, that I'm confident isn't of the same quality or velocity as any NATO-cross stamped ammo.
Also, the sales people i know from several wal-marts in my area haven't seen 38, 357, 9mm or .45acp Perfecta in longer than they can recall.

 

[Deus Machina]

I personally wouldn't be worried about anything loaded to NATO spec. Even if it's not in NATO brass, as long as it's to spec. Maybe it was for purely domestic use? Maybe it's just to spec but wasn't intended for military use? Who knows.

Also, I like to think the note 'made be MEN in Germany' means it was made by burly bearded guys in flannel and leiderhosen, and tested out of SMGs against sides of curing pork.

 

[PabloJ]

Let's see you have choice between old ammo made by MEN w/o knowing original intended use versus fresh CIP rated stuff. It should not take me long to make correct choice, but if you want to play ammo roulette don't let me stand in your way.

 

[Warp]

Let's see you have choice between old ammo made by MEN w/o knowing original intended use versus fresh CIP rated stuff. It should not take me long to make correct choice, but if you want to play ammo roulette don't let me stand in your way.

Since this is case quantity FMJ we're pretty much talking about range ammo here. I'm sure it's perfectly fine

 

[Steve C]

While there is a NATO spec for 9mm every member country loads their ammo differently. The NATO symbol stamp only means it will function in member country firearms, doesn't mean its loaded to "the" NATO spec.

If you do the conversion of 270 Mpa to PSI the maximum pressure of the MEN ammo would be 39,160 PSI though the information says less than or equal to. SAAMI +P has a max of 38,500 psi so one should consider this ammo is probably at +P level and the mean pressure is somewhere less than 39,160 PSI and safe to fire in any handgun capable of handling +P.

As to velocity of the ammo the published velocity that doesn't indicate what barrel length it was shot from is for the most part worthless in determining what you'd get from your pistol. To find that out you'll need a chronograph. I once bought some Euro Hirtenberger 9mm "police ammo" with 100gr JSP bullets that was supposed to do 1,500 fps but when chrono'd from my Glock 19 it only averaged 1,306 fps, not that fast for a 100 gr bullet at +P. Maybe it would have done as advertised from a 10" SMG or a 16" carbine.

 

[joneb]

I've shot this ammo, and it's good. The primer pockets appear to be non crimped, just sealed. I have not reloaded it yet so?
It seemed a bit mild to me.
men 9B
124 gr Nato
XDS 3.3"
low 1074 fps
High 1114 fps
AV 1089 fps
ES 39.18 fps
SD 13.19
string X 8rnds

 

[481]

The video said primer pocket sealant...didn't see anything about crimp.

M

Yeah, same here. The red primer sealant is clearly visible around the perimeter of the primer pocket...reminds me of how S&B does with their .45ACP 230 gr. FMJ ammo.

 

[MIL-DOT]

...reminds me of how S&B does with their .45ACP 230 gr. FMJ ammo.

They did that with more than just .45 ammo, but now they appear to have stopped it altogether. Everything from S&B I've seen made in the last few years doesn't have the sealant anymore.

 

[Jim K]

The problem is that seeking a "NATO Spec" is chasing something that does not exist.

The governing document for 9x19 ammunition is STANAG (Standardization Agreement) 4090, which addresses ammunition interchangeability, including cartridge dimensions and barrel dimensions, but leaves a wide scope in the ammunition itself for national preferences.

See: www.scribd.com/doc/60112455/STANAG4090-Cartridge-9x19

Briefly, bullet weight must be 108 gr. to 128 gr.; muzzle energy NLT 400 ft. lbs, NTE 600 ft. lbs.; working pressures NTE 37,000 psi; maximum NTE 42,700 psi. Muzzle velocity is not addressed, nor is any minimum pressure, except that it must function the approved weapons.

In other words, the STANAG is a performance and interchangeability spec. They didn't care about details as long as every round bearing the NATO symbol would work in all NATO weapons without damaging the weapons, and would give the required lethality.

Jim