9mm Speer GDHP 115gr +P+ vs 124gr +P vs 124gr +P short barrel

[ChCx2744]

Hello folks. I have a dilemma that I would like cleared up. Any of you who have experience with these two rounds or have a good build-up of knowledge on hollow point ballistics would be of great value with your input.

I am drawing near to the date where I am going to have to shoot my carry load and buy new defense ammo for my 2 primary carry guns. I switch between a Gen 3 Glock 19 and Glock 26. I am currently carrying Speer GDHP 124gr +P short barrel.

My question is, I plan to buy the standard GDHP 124gr +P, not the short barreled version. I understand that I should get the desired results out of the Glock 19, but I an concerned with penetration and expansion if it is loaded in the Glock 26. Should I just stick to loading the G19 with the standard 124gr +P loads and the G26 with the different 124gr +P short barrel loads? Do you guys think I'll be okay loading both the G19 and G26 with the same standard 124gr +P? What about the 115gr +P+ version of the GDHP? Does the lighter 115gr with higher +P+ rating have any pros or cons over the 124gr +P and/or 124gr +P short barrel loads?

I recently observed a ballistics test done with a G26 and the standard 124gr +P loads into a ballistic gelatin test and was surprised at the slightly weak penetration capability of the 124gr +P standard round out of the G26's shorter 3.5 inch barrel.

I'm fairly certain my G19 will give pretty impressive results with all 3 124gr +P, 124gr +P short barrel AND 115gr +P+ loads, but the G26 is what I'm concerned about, especially because I carry it more than I do the G19.

Any help would be appreciated, thanks.

 

[wow6599]

I recently observed a ballistics test done with a G26 and the standard 124gr +P loads into a ballistic gelatin test and was surprised at the slightly weak penetration capability of the 124gr +P standard round out of the G26's shorter 3.5 inch barrel.

Can you elaborate? What was the penetration and expansion?
I think you are putting way too much thought in to this, that's why I'm asking for numbers...........

 

[Effigy]

Assuming prices are similar, I'd think the short barrel version would be better for the G26. I'd just go with a standard loading for the G19. No harm in buying 2 different types of ammo, right? It's no different than people that have carry guns in different calibers.

 

[ChCx2744]

wow6599, it's all here:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=270504

All shots penetrated less than 12 inches through only gelatin. Not taking into account denim and other clothing fabric, as well as bone...Well...That's not optimal penetration, even if it is a JHP.

 

[Waywatcher]

Ever looked into Winchester Ranger 127 +P+?

I know a local cop that stokes his piece with it.

It is also Massad Ayoob's #1 recommended load for 9mm, check it out on Glock Talk, GATE Self Defense section.

Gold Dots are fine, but I think the Ranger might be a bit cheaper and better.

 

[ChCx2744]

Waywatcher, I am also a fan of the T-Series and have carried them in the past, but there have been several instances of jacket separation during some tests. If there are multiple failures of the jacket holding up in a controlled test enviornment, I could only assume that it could most likely happen in a real life SD scenario as well. The Speer Gold Dots have always seemed to stay in tact through all the tests I've seen, and on top of that, the Gold Dots expand a bit wider compared to the T-Series. Price wise, the two are pretty much around the same price range. I definitely think the sharp "petals" of the T-Series would fudge stuff up hardcore, however, I personally prefer the Gold Dots. Also, if I remember correctly, I once saw a youtube video test of the 127gr +P T-Series through auto glass and a couple of the rounds actually BOUNCED away from the angle of the glass! Now usually rounds are supposed to maybe "tilt" upwards a bit, if anything, but BOUNCING away is unacceptable.

 

[Apocalypse-Now]

of those two, standard 124gr +p is what you want for both the g19 and g26.


however, 147gr HST is a better performer. either standard pressure or +p.

 

[Dapperdan]

I carry either 147 gr. Golden Sabres in my S&W 9c most of the time, occasionally 124 gr. Gold Dot +P. Factoring in many variables, and I'm not saying it's all bunk, but marketing hype is getting kinda silly. There is a HUGE market these days for compact guns, holsters and ammunition. Everyone wants a piece of the action. Ammo companies seem to be in a race to bring out the next wonder bullet. Hitting my target is my priority, always has been, always will be. What is "hot" today, won't be tomorrow.

 

[minutemen1776]

I once called Speer to ask about the best load for my S&W 3913 and Kahr K9, both of which have a 3.5-inch barrel like the Glock 26. I was advised to go with the regular 124-grain +P load.

 

[CZ57]

124 gr GD +P for the G19 and 124 gr GD +P Short barrel for the G26.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

All shots penetrated less than 12 inches through only gelatin. Not taking into account denim and other clothing fabric, as well as bone...Well...That's not optimal penetration, even if it is a JHP.

The link you are referencing is about 4 years old now. For reference, the same people did a test of 9mm 124gr Gold Dot JHP +P out of Glock 26 through denim and the rounds penetrated to 14.4"

 

[ChCx2744]

Bartholomew Roberts...WOW! Thank you for the link, this actually puts the Speer GDHP into a whole new perspective for me now.

It's interesting how the bullets penetrated even deeper THROUGH the denim than without it there. Could it be that the bullet has since been upgraded since the previous test? Perhaps they were shot at a different distance? Hmm...

 

[Ben86]

With modern ammo being designed to open up at a wide range of velocities I think the days of having a separate ammo type for shorter barrels is over.

It's 124 grain +P PDX1 for both my M&P9 (4.25") and PM9 (3").

 

[jon_in_wv]

All of them are fine. Just pick one and practice. More practice is much more likely to save your life than any difference between those bullets.

 

[gofastman]

It's interesting how the bullets penetrated even deeper THROUGH the denim than without it there.

thats usually the way it works, the cloth sort of controlls the expansion.

 

[MikeNice]

Here is my impression from a general stand point after looking at a lot of tests and trying a few different rounds.

115gr+P+ bullets tend to tear themselves apart when they impact. The velocity seems to push it beyond the design tolerances of modern bullets. I haven't seen many test with bonded 115gr+P+ bullets that I can remember. They may perform better, but I doubt it will be much better. Most +P+ bullets of any weight seem to turn in to weirldy shaped and over expanded balls of lead in my research and experience. I tend to stay away from them. Plus they add wear to your gun.

The 124gr+P should be fine in any gun. I am slightly suprised by the results of the Brass Fetcher testing. I have never seen a gold dot break apart and fail like that. I do expect to see the bullet deform some when using +p ammo though. It doesn't happen every time but it isn't uncommon.

Check out Tennessee Outdoor Nine on You Tube. He has tests of the Gold Dot 124gr+P and 147gr on there. I haven't checked out his results.

The short barrel should do fine in the 26. I just haven't seen any mind blowing difference between short barrel and regular +p. It just hasn't impressed me. If you want to carry Gold Dot in the 26 I recommend 147gr. It loses a lower percentage of velocity as the barrel gets shorter. It "lingers" and uses the powder more efficiently.

Gold Dot is a good round. Many officers still trust their life to it. I prefer Federal HST rounds. However, I currently carry 147gr Winchester Ranger Bonded because I got a good deal. I really don't think you can go wrong with Gold Dot, Winchester Ranger, or Federal HST. I would use any of the four based completely on the best deal I could find.

Use any of the four and the weight you shoot most accurately. If you do that, you will be fine.

 

[heeler]

MikeNice,I too watched those YouTube by Tn outdoor 9 and came away with the impression that the 147 grain way over penetrated.
Which is always worrisome for me.
I have not yet tried any defense ammo in my Khar PM9 and everytime I read this or that on the internet about this or that ammo I almost come away dizzy as there is a just Sooo many brands and bullet weights to choose from and not to mention the expense.
I was about to just try out some 124 gr. Gold Dots when I then read they might not be reliable feeders in the PM9.
I guess it's never all that easy to choose the right ammo.

 

[MikeNice]

Buy a couple boxes of Gold Dot, HST, Ranger Bonded, or Ranger T. Choose the weight you shoot best when practicing. Then test two or three mags of each for feeding. Whichever feeds reliably and you shoot well is the winner.

Any of the "premium" self defense rounds should do the job. Don't worry yourself in to paralysis.

The department I work for issues the Federal HST 124gr+p to officers opting for the 9mm. I can say that in every OIS report I've read it worked just fine. It is a reliable and consistent round. You can check out actual tests of the HST on the ATK LE site. They test them against Winchester and Speer. You can see a few real test of the "top" LE rounds and figure out which ones you want to try. Then pick them up for a song at Ammunition to Go or SG Ammo.

 

[heeler]

Mike,the problem is most of these Youtube ammo tests are with 4 inch barreled 9 mm's.
The Khar is only 3 inches and that makes I would think a big difference in the testing of the bullets performance.
I am quite sure a 147 grain HST or Gold Dot would be pretty slow at 10-20 feet coming out of that 3 inch barrel and I wonder if it would even expand or push through way too much.
Not sure yet if a faster and lighter 124 grain would or would not be the way to go in the 3 inch barreled Khar.
Sometimes I wonder if the 115 grain Hornady Critical Defense might not be the way to go.

 

[Apocalypse-Now]

It's interesting how the bullets penetrated even deeper THROUGH the denim than without it there.

thats usually the way it works, the cloth sort of controlls the expansion.

jhp's will generally penetrate more through denim.


the reason being the hollowpoint cavity fills with the material, and it either retards or reduces the expansion diameter.

the expanded jhp bullet therefore has a smaller frontal expanded diameter. smaller frontal surface area equals less resistance and more penetration.

 

[MikeNice]

Heeler, I run 147gr in my 3.8" barrel CZ P-07. I tested the Winchester Ranger Bonded today. They ran about 16" of penetration and expanded to the factory intended size. 16" is not considerred over penetration any more. I don't know exactly when it changed but 12" - 18" is considerred optimal now.

The heavy bullets lose less velocity as the barrel gets shorter. A 124gr+P is losing more energy by going from a 4" to 3" barrel. It will hardly phase the 147gr in comparision. Plus the 147gr bullet is designed to work at slower speeds because of the weight.

Buy a couple of boxes of different hollow points. Buy them in the weight you are most effective with during practice. Then take them out and test them yourself. That is the only way to find out what really works in your gun.

Visit Golden Loki's website to see what works in a Kel Tec P-11. If it works in that gun it should do fine in a Kahr. That is the other option.

10 -20 feet is not going to make much difference in the speed of a bullet. Most bullets are chronographed at 10 feet. To get a bullet to lose enough energy to be non fatal would take 1,000 - 2,000 feet at least.

If yo are overly worried about penetration and expansion go with the Hornady Critical Defense line up. I have seen tests showing 11.2" - 12.3" from the Kahr PM9. It sucks against nearly all intermediate barriers. However, straight through cloth and in to skin it works well. It lands in the acceptable range for penetration. It expands well and I've never heard of a gun not feeding it. It really does take all of the guess work out of the equation.

Personally I want something a little meaner. If I have to shoot through my bedroom door, I wan to know the bullet is up to it. That is why I prefer 147gr bullets. If you think the chances of ever shooting through a barrier are slim, grab the Hornady. You will be equiped to dispatch evil.

I guess I had to ramble to the point. Buy the Hornady Critical Defense. It will work in nearly every situation a civilian will ever face. Plus, it readily works in short barrel guns with a minimum loss of velocity.

 

[Hammerdown77]

heeler,

I wouldn't lose too much sleep over over-penetration. Your chances of hitting an innocent with an over-penetrated round are FAR exceeded by your chances of hitting them with a miss. Watch dash-cam videos of police shootings. LOTS of misses. And those errant rounds haven't been through a body first to slow them down...

'course that's my opinion based on what I've seen and read, and worth exactly what you paid for it...

 

[heeler]

I can easily agree with that Hammerdown.
Of course my over penetration concerns are because living in a big city there is always a chance of a non offender taking a hit after passing through the intended target.
I won't say I cannot ever see myself needing a bullet that can go through doors and windshields as a LEO might need to stop a threat but I think for me that chance is slim.
This is a good reason I would not ever carry fmj in my PM9 for protection as that would greatly improve the chance of hitting someone else on a pass through shot...Or worse more than one other person.

 

[gamestalker]

I don't shoot factory ammunition but I do load Gold Dots in every weight available and think they are an excellent bullet and perform reliably. I personally prefer the 115 gr. G.D. because it is a higher velocity round which has tested well for me with regard to expansion and penetration.
I use the following method to test my loads for all my handgun cartridges. I also shoot them through a chronograph, but that information would be of no help here considering these are reloads which are producing significantly more velocity than factory. A box lined with a plastic trash bag then filled with water and tightly rolled up denim.
The 115 gr. G.D. went through and through and produced a very large wound cavity with good evidense of expansion at first point of entry.
The 124 gr. did exactly the same ting but didn't go through and through.
The 147 gr. was an XTP bullet and performed poorly with regard to penetration and expansion.
The box I use is 18" with a box of water behind it to recover the projectiles that go completely through.

 

[ChCx2744]

Okay, after much deliberation, here are my possible choices:

In the G19, I wanna try either:
Speer Gold Dot 124gr +P HP
Federal LE Tactical HST 124gr +P HP

I base these findings on the G19 because, after extensive online research, I have found that these 2 rounds seem to be the most favored, tested and consistent with penetration and expansion.

In the G26, I wanna try either:
Speer Gold Dot 124gr +P Short Barrel HP
Speer Gold Dot 147gr HP (Standard, no +P)
Federal Tactical HST 147gr HP (Standard, no +P)

I base these findings on the G26 because, after extensive online research, I have found that the GDHP +P 124gr short barrel is made for shorter barrels, while the 147gr standard loads seem to work well in shorter barrels, due to the better penetration capability and lag time of allowing the powder to use it's full potential while the bullet is still in the barrel. Also, with the heavier 147gr bullets out of the shorter barrel, there seem to be better results of penetration and expansion over the 124gr +P bullets; they seem to work better in the longer barrels.

Any input or corrections to my findings? Any further advice?