9mm vs. .38 +P special

[stinger 327]

Generally which cartridge does more damage to tissue?
115 9mm +P+ HP or 125 grain .38 +P HP in 125-158 grain range?

 

[InkEd]

It really depends alot on the exact bullet being used in the cartridge. Both will work fine and IMHO +P+ is a bit of overkill when using a well designed HP especially in 9mm.

 

[stinger 327]

It really depends alot on the exact bullet being used in the cartridge. Both will work fine and IMHO +P+ is a bit of overkill when using a well designed HP especially in 9mm.

Like Hornady Critical Defense ammo, Corbon Powerball, or Gold Dot Ammo?
Forgot to mention the .38 would be a Snub nose revolver almost 2 inch barrel.

 

[SaxonPig]

Any bullet will do a lot of damage to tissue. Bullet design is maybe more of a factor than is velocity. A solid bullet at any speed does less damage than does a bullet that upsets or fragments.

Factory +P+ 9mm using the 115 JHP clocks 1250 FPS in my tests. This is substantially faster than factory +P 38 Special 125s which go 925 FPS from a 4" revolver. The 300 FPS advantage of the 9 would make it more powerful than the 38 +P which is actually a fairly mild load. Some people think it's hot because of marketing but it is not. I load 125s to a clocked 1150 FPS for my 38s. This is still below the 9mm +P+ which operates at a higher chamber pressure. I once loaded some 110 JHPs to over 1400 FPS from a 4" M10 S&W but these exceeded SAAMI pressure limits.

 

[InkEd]

Those are all good designs and will work fine.

 

[Furncliff]

This might be a start...http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/

 

[stinger 327]

Any bullet will do a lot of damage to tissue. Bullet design is maybe more of a factor than is velocity. A solid bullet at any speed does less damage than does a bullet that upsets or fragments.

Factory +P+ 9mm using the 115 JHP clocks 1250 FPS in my tests. This is substantially faster than factory +P 38 Special 125s which go 925 FPS from a 4" revolver. The 300 FPS advantage of the 9 would make it more powerful than the 38 +P which is actually a fairly mild load. Some people think it's hot because of marketing but it is not. I load 125s to a clocked 1150 FPS for my 38s. This is still below the 9mm +P+ which operates at a higher chamber pressure. I once loaded some 110 JHPs to over 1400 FPS from a 4" M10 S&W but these exceeded SAAMI pressure limits.

Those Corbon loads in 115 grain 9mm+ are 1,400 fps. Same goes for the Powerball loads from Corbon.

 

[txhoghunter]

idk...let me grab some kleenex and test it real quick.... sorry, sarcasm is my way to try to find humor in all of these "this vs. that" threads and I admit that was a pretty bad attempt at it

but in all honesty I would think it to be a fairly close comparison.

 

[stinger 327]

Those are all good designs and will work fine.

Buffalo Bore loads come to mind.

 

[SaxonPig]

S327- I usually don't take the specialty loads into consideration due to lack of popularity, cost, and my own ignorance on them.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

If I thought the 9mm would stop the bad guy faster than a .38 Special +P I would carry a 9mm but I don't. Current bullet design makes the .38 Special a very good man stopper even from a 2" barrel.

 

[stinger 327]

If I thought the 9mm would stop the bad guy faster than a .38 Special +P I would carry a 9mm but I don't. Current bullet design makes the .38 Special a very good man stopper even from a 2" barrel.

just looking at the size difference of the bullet casings one would think the .38 + P would have the advantage.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

just looking at the size difference of the bullet casings one would think the .38 + P would have the advantage.

If you are talking about the case itself, not really! The .38 special has such a big case because it was originally designed for Blackpowder. The 9mm was never loaded with Blackpowder so it's much smaller. The current .38 Special SAAMI pressure limits are 17,000 psi whereas the 9mm's limits are 35,000 psi. Only the .357 Magnum mimics the pressures developed by the 9mm, not the .38 Special. anyway, that shouldn't be the focus IMO, it should be energy transfer and bullet design. Since the bullets for both calibers can be the same design there's no clear "winner" there which leaves energy. In that department the 9mm probably wins until you get into the heavier bullets then the .38 Special +P probably takes an edge. If you really want to compare it should be the 9mm and the .357 Magnum. The Magnum is what the .38 Special could be when loaded right! LOL

 

[stinger 327]

If you are talking about the case itself, not really! The .38 special has such a big case because it was originally designed for Blackpowder. The 9mm was never loaded with Blackpowder so it's much smaller. The current .38 Special SAAMI pressure limits are 17,000 psi whereas the 9mm's limits are 35,000 psi. Only the .357 Magnum mimics the pressures developed by the 9mm, not the .38 Special. anyway, that shouldn't be the focus IMO, it should be energy transfer and bullet design. Since the bullets for both calibers can be the same design there's no clear "winner" there which leaves energy. In that department the 9mm probably wins until you get into the heavier bullets then the .38 Special +P probably takes an edge. If you really want to compare it should be the 9mm and the .357 Magnum. The Magnum is what the .38 Special could be when loaded right! LOL

so perhaps the 158 grain .38's might fare better?

 

[ArchAngelCD]

That depends on barrel length and velocity. Most .38 Special +P ammo uses a lighter bullet because they want to safely achieve velocities that are guaranteed to expand the bullet reliable.

I carry either the Speer 135gr Short Barrel round of the Remington FBI Load depending on which J frame I'm carrying.

IMO you're over thinking this matter too much. Buy a few different rounds and find the ammo that shoots accurately in your revolver and stick with it. In the end it's shot placement that will count more than anything else.

 

[sixgunner455]

Handgun energy transfer is a myth. Handgun bullets, fired from common service caliber firearms, simply do not move fast enough to do anything of the sort. Rifles do it, but even then, performance is not guaranteed. One-shot stops are a statistical anomaly, and are not to be relied upon. Handgun hollowpoint expansion is iffy, no matter how advanced or reliable your chosen bullet does in expansion tests.

The two most important things are: (1)hitting your target accurately (2)with a bullet that will penetrate deeply enough to disrupt vital organs or structures enough to stop an attacker from being able to do anything but lie down and cry.

Repeat, as necessary.

Expansion, if it happens, is a bonus.

Weird things happen when bullets impact flesh. Sometimes, they hit exactly where you want and they do exactly what you would expect them to do, and the target doesn't react "right". Sometimes, they hit in the wrong spot, don't do what you want them to inside the target, and still the target goes down.

.355 vs .357? Pressure=velocity. Bullet design, gun design, and hitting the target are the more important things to worry about. The .38 can safely throw a *much* heavier bullet, but without violating the standard, accepted safe pressure limits, cannot catch up with the 9mm in speed. Heavy bullets generally penetrate better than light ones do, so my personal choice is to carry 124 or 147 grain bullets in a 9mm rather than 90 to 115 grains, and 125, 140, 148, and 158 grains in .38 Special, rather than 90 to 110. 125 grains are only for my aluminum snubbies. Everything else should be throwing heavier slugs.

 

[AK103K]

If you really want to compare it should be the 9mm and the .357 Magnum.

I tend to agree. I emailed Speer awhile back with a question on the difference between 9mm and 357SIG. Their response was, rounds of the same caliber using the same weight bullet, and loaded to the same pressures, would give basically the same results.

That puts some +P+ 9mm and the 357SIG in the same basic category from the "power" respect.

Using that same logic, it puts some of the 9mm and some 357MAG loadings in the same categories.

The two most important things are: (1)hitting your target accurately (2)with a bullet that will penetrate deeply enough to disrupt vital organs or structures enough to stop an attacker from being able to do anything but lie down and cry.

Repeat, as necessary.

This basically is it, and you need capacity to do the "repeat as necessary" part.

Considering that most encounters wont be your typical "stand at the bench and leisurely shoot little bragging right groups at bullseye type targets", and the probability that under stress, and while jumping/running around, youre not likely to get those little groups youre so proud of, are you "really' comfortable with 5 rounds of .38? Its going to take what it takes, until its done, and wont necessarily be following the "rule of threes" youre constantly told is all you need worry about.

My Glock 26 has replaced my 642's for the most part, for all of the above reasons, and a couple more. The 26 is very close in size, is a lot easier to shoot well with, carries a hotter round, and double to six times what the 642's do, and its a lot quicker and easier on the reload, if it were needed.

 

[MikeNice]

A .38spl+p out of a snub nose will meet the FBI requirements in bare gel. Read the old article pocket full of dynomite.

Speer has released a Gold Dot that performs even better than the one in that test. Winchester has released updated and improved hollow points in .38spl+p since then.

I use the .38spl+p 158gr LSWC-HP sold under the Federal Classic (LE) brand. In my own informal testing it has performed well. It went through four layers of old khaki pants and four water jugs. Three rounds averaged .556 inches of expansion.

That was with a three inch barrel. I feel confident that with that kind of performance a .38spl+p round can do nearly anything a 9mm can. The question is, do you feel comfortable with only five or six shots?

 

[stinger 327]

Handgun energy transfer is a myth. Handgun bullets, fired from common service caliber firearms, simply do not move fast enough to do anything of the sort. Rifles do it, but even then, performance is not guaranteed. One-shot stops are a statistical anomaly, and are not to be relied upon. Handgun hollowpoint expansion is iffy, no matter how advanced or reliable your chosen bullet does in expansion tests.

The two most important things are: (1)hitting your target accurately (2)with a bullet that will penetrate deeply enough to disrupt vital organs or structures enough to stop an attacker from being able to do anything but lie down and cry.

Repeat, as necessary.

Expansion, if it happens, is a bonus.

Weird things happen when bullets impact flesh. Sometimes, they hit exactly where you want and they do exactly what you would expect them to do, and the target doesn't react "right". Sometimes, they hit in the wrong spot, don't do what you want them to inside the target, and still the target goes down.

.355 vs .357? Pressure=velocity. Bullet design, gun design, and hitting the target are the more important things to worry about. The .38 can safely throw a *much* heavier bullet, but without violating the standard, accepted safe pressure limits, cannot catch up with the 9mm in speed. Heavy bullets generally penetrate better than light ones do, so my personal choice is to carry 124 or 147 grain bullets in a 9mm rather than 90 to 115 grains, and 125, 140, 148, and 158 grains in .38 Special, rather than 90 to 110. 125 grains are only for my aluminum snubbies. Everything else should be throwing heavier slugs.

With the little mouse guns like .25 ACP or .32 ACP they say you are better off with the FMJ bullets to get the most penetration should you end up with one of these highly concealable guns.

 

[sixguns4fighting]

Keith bullet (Lyman #358429) over a stout load of 2400 FTW!

 

[stinger 327]

Keith bullet (Lyman #358429) over a stout load of 2400 FTW!

Don't understand what this means?

 

[golden]

9m.m. has the power edge

327,
Except for the lightest, smallest gun, I would go with the 9m.m.

The standard 9m.m. using a good bullett and most of them are these days is more powerful than the .38 Special +P. It is a matter of velocitiy, barrel length and pressure, these usually favor the 9m.m., even at standard pressure.

If you want a deeper penetration, you can go with the .38 Special +P using the 158 lead hollow point (never use the non-hollow point as a defense load unless you really, really want to find out what happens when a bullet overpenetrates).
Also, the non-hollowpoint 158 grain load had a popular nickname among police, the WIDOWMAKER. It earned it with many failure to stop cases.

In my own revolvers, the 158 +P loads, I found recoil to be heavy. I choose to load 110 grain .357 loads in my revolvers instead of the .158 +P for that reason. They have similar recoil and stopping power with a slight edge to the 110 grain load.

The 9m.m. in +P and +P+ are a class above the .38 Special and equal low end .357 Magnum loads. When my agency used the .357 Magnum, we used the 110 grain hollow point at 1,300 feet per second. We had no complaints about stopping power.
The 115 grain +P+ load I was issued for my GLOCK 19 fired a 115 grain jhp at 1,300 feet per second. You can see why the +P+ 9m.m. loads gained such a hot reputation.

I have carried the .357 Magnum on duty using both the 110 grain and 125 grain loads. The 125 grain load is a heavy recoiling load that has earned a fearsome reputation.
I have also used the 9m.m. and .40 S&W calibers and of them all, I choose the 9m.m. for my house gun and concealed carry when I carry a full size or compact gun.

For me at least, the 9m.m. has the best combination of recoil, stopping power and capacity. My BERETTA, GLOCK, SIG, SPRINGFIELD ARMORY XD or WALTHER give me a minimum of 27 rounds available when I carry with 1 spare magazine. That beats 12 rounds (10 rounds in a 5 shot .38 Special).

I recommend that you shoot a 9m.m. and .38 Special side by side on a qualification course and decide which gun works for you. Then choose your ammo.

Either will do the job, but I think the 9m.m. will do it better.

Jim

 

[stinger 327]

golden 327,
Except for the lightest, smallest gun, I would go with the 9m.m.

The problem with 9mm Auto is jamming. Revolver will be more dependable. If something needed for light and small something like a Ruger LCR +P .38 would serve well.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Sorry but in an SD situation if you need 27 rounds you better do a lot more practicing.

I just love all the "fear talk" about running out of ammo when carrying a revolver but I have still to hear of anyone actually running out of ammo in a normal SD situation.

 

[AK103K]

Sorry but in an SD situation if you need 27 rounds you better do a lot more practicing.

How do you know what youre going to need? Do you have a crystal ball that tells you how many rounds to put in the gun that day?

Ive never understood how having more rounds available is bad. No one says you have to use them, and Id rather have 16 left in my 17 shooter, than to need number 6 in my 5 shooter.

but I have still to hear of anyone actually running out of ammo in a normal SD situation.

Starts at page 32....

http://fmgpublications.ipaperus.com/FMGPublications/AmericanHandgunner/AHMJ11/

This was just "one on one", and at contact distances. Assuming the cop had "some" training, he still ran his gun to slide lock (14 rounds with 7 hits), as did his opponent (9 rounds with 1 hit).


If you arent practicing as "realistically" as possible, then youre very likely going to be way behind the curve when the time comes you need your gun.

Shooting tight little groups on a bullseye target at your leisure proves noting as to your true capabilities. It simply shows you have the basics down, and your stagnating.

If you can make good "hits" under some stress, on realistic targets, from the holster and while moving while getting the gun in action and while shooting, then youre on the way.

If you think youre just going to stand there, and place one perfect shot on each target, and its going to be enough, whos kidding who?