a couple novice questions about handgun accuracy

Bob Willman · Jun 2, 2020

We will assume that you are wearing hearing protection!

IdaD · Jun 2, 2020

Hartkopf said:
Wear good eye protection. Both eyes open. Don’t blink. Roll through the trigger break. If you know where the trigger breaks too well, you will probably flinch just before the break and not even know it.(new shooters) Pull the trigger smooth and steady all the way to the rear. Dry fire is great but won’t stop a flinch during live fire.

Mixing in snapcaps is a great way to find a flinch. Load one in with live rounds and fire away, or better yet have a friend load some mags so you don't know where it is. A free alternative is to load a round, drop the mag and then fire twice. Even though you may know it, a lot of times you'll get a flinch on that second trigger pull.

CapnMac · Jun 2, 2020

Randomly adding a snapcap to a mag or to and jumbling them up, so you are not aware is a very old method used for flinch detection.

Another thing you can do in these modern times is to set up a video cam on a tripod and film yourself shooting. (Just over the right shoulder if you are shooting right handed may be best to start). Watching that video may tell you things about your stance, hold, any flinching, etc.
This is surprisingly effective for improving batting, and can work well for shooting, too.

idek · Jun 3, 2020

Follow up... I tried suggestions that were made. I've done some dry-fire practice. I shot my .22s a bit. This afternoon, I shot this group with my PX4 at 7 yards. Slow fire... in some cases, very slow fire... lowering the gun, taking some breaths, adjusting my grip before shooting again. Two shots were double action (including the lowest hit on the target). The other eight were single action.

I know this wouldn't win any awards, but it's significantly better than the groups I got a few days ago with the same gun before I posted my questions here, and I feel more optimistic that I did then. Thanks for all the help. I will reread the posts (it was a lot to take in at once) and try to implement more suggestions as I practice.

Tensaw · Jun 3, 2020

All of these guys are giving great suggestions that are helping me. I recently read "The Perfect Pistol Shot" by Albert H. League and it helped.

idek · Jun 9, 2020

So I've read/heard several places about the importance of focusing on the front sight. I've also read/heard that I should shoot with both eyes open.

Should I conclude then that both eyes are focused on the front sight, or is it mostly the dominant eye looking at the front sight while the other eye is mostly providing peripheral vision?

idek · Jun 9, 2020

Tensaw said:
...I recently read "The Perfect Pistol Shot" by Albert H. League and it helped.

I just downloaded this on my Kindle. It seems good so far.

SSN Vet · Jun 9, 2020

I've come to the conclusion that shooting handguns accurately is a LOT more difficult than most people think (certainly more so than depicted in the movies).

That said, my biggest improvement came from a short session with a trainer. What an experienced eye observes watching you is invaluable.

Practice doesn't make perfect, as it can actually cement bad habits.

Perfect practice makes perfect

.38 Special · Jun 9, 2020

idek said:
So I've read/heard several places about the importance of focusing on the front sight. I've also read/heard that I should shoot with both eyes open.

Should I conclude then that both eyes are focused on the front sight, or is it mostly the dominant eye looking at the front sight while the other eye is mostly providing peripheral vision?

Regardless of how many eyes you keep open, the goal is complete focus on the front sight.

GooseGestapo · Jun 9, 2020

Grip, sight alignment, trigger squeeze... that’s all there is to it...(not!).

Focus on front sight, and follow through on front sight alignment till recoil pulls you off. Repeat...
Different gun designs require different techniques.
Practice makes perfect. just ask Jerry Miculek.

Pudge · Jun 11, 2020

SSN Vet said:
I've come to the conclusion that shooting handguns accurately is a LOT more difficult than most people think (certainly more so than depicted in the movies).

That said, my biggest improvement came from a short session with a trainer. What an experienced eye observes watching you is invaluable.

Practice doesn't make perfect, as it can actually cement bad habits.

Perfect practice makes perfect

I've heard that. I don't want to be perfect, I want to be better. I'm going to use my old standards before my eyes betrayed me. With my Single Six I was routinely under 3" at 25 yards unsupported. So, I want to get better. My stance is a Weaver, aiming down my strong side arm/hand. Not perfect. Now, how much time, ammo, and money is it going to take to change my stance and improve my shooting? Will I get there before my eyes deteriorate such that I ever actually improve? What if I continue to use an imperfect stance, will continued efforts on trigger control, follow-through and sight picture produce better results sooner? What If I'm just trying to hit the 6" steel at 100yds unsupported? Do I need to retrain myself with perfect stance, grip and so forth, under the eyes of a trainer, and will that get me there sooner than consistent imperfect practice?

And all this is with my understanding that today's "perfection" is simply what we'll look at in the future as mistakes from when we didn't know better.

Milt1 · Jun 11, 2020

From what you've written I gather that you have some age on you (worried about your vision). Seems that your goal is to perhaps be consistent at 100 yds at a 6 inch steel plate. Under three inches at 25 yds unsupported is very good so I don't know what you expect in bettering that? Perhaps if you defined your goals first and then have a trainer or coach at your range to help you achieve the goals you've set.

Pudge · Jun 11, 2020

Milt1 said:
From what you've written I gather that you have some age on you (worried about your vision). Seems that your goal is to perhaps be consistent at 100 yds at a 6 inch steel plate. Under three inches at 25 yds unsupported is very good so I don't know what you expect in bettering that? Perhaps if you defined your goals first and then have a trainer or coach at your range to help you achieve the goals you've set.

My range is in my backyard, and trainers and coaches are in short supply. In all reality, this place, you and those like you, whether responding to me or to someone who's post I find germane, whether I agree with them/you or disagree, have been unimaginably helpful in my becoming a better shot.

I always felt that being under 3" consistently at 25 yards was good, and my (rare) groups under 2" were very good. I can't shoot like that with my 3" K Frames, but even imperfect practice, with helpful advice from here, will keep me improving.

LiveLife · Jun 12, 2020

idek said:
I shoot two-handed from a standing position ... my first 5 shots or so group reasonably well, and it gets worse after that.

Is this a known issue for other people? If so, what causes it and what could I do to correct it?

That's likely from muscle fatigue if you are using mostly hand/forearm muscles which tire easily.

Solution is to transfer the grip work to larger muscles of your shoulders, back and chest which will tire much slower and maintain steady grip/sight alignment on target. Here are some step-by-steps you can follow:

Neutral grip - Forming steady isometric push/pull grip that won't move the front sight when the hammer/striker is released - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ith-this-glock-22.861829/page-2#post-11354420

Neutral grip illustrated and demonstrated by Rob Leatham - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/trigger-control.834737/page-2#post-11245649

idek said:
Some say place the pad of the finger on the face of the trigger. Others say place the crease of the joint on the face of the trigger. Is it just personal preference? Does one way have advantages over the other?

This is what U.S. Army Marksmanship Unit, Pistol Marksmanship Training Guide has to say about trigger finger placement - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/trigger-control.834737/page-4#post-11320782

"3. Proper Placement of the Trigger Finger: It is necessary to apply pressure on the trigger with either the first bone section of the index finger, or with the first joint. The trigger must be pressed straight to the rear. If the finger presses the trigger to the side, undesirable things will happen. The weight of trigger pull will increase; because of additional friction on certain parts of the trigger mechanism an otherwise flawless trigger action will take on the characteristics of a poor trigger when side pressure is exerted on the trigger. Another consideration is the effect that side pressure has on sight alignment. Only slight pressure to the side is required to bring about an error in sight alignment. The prime cause of exerting pressure to the side is improper placement of the trigger finger. Figure 3-1. Correct Placement of the Index Finger on the Trigger. (a) With Joint of Index Finger. (b) With First Bone Section of Index Finger . Ideal trigger finger placement may be modified to a degree by the requirement that the grip provide a natural alignment of the front and rear sights. The shooter frequently must make a compromise to overcome the undesirable effects of not being able to utilize each factor to full advantage."

And at 2:10 of video, Brian Zins talks about trigger finger placement

idek said:
I suspect I do flinch when shooting ... I'll try some of the suggestions people have made regarding dry-fire practice, finger placement, and general focus on sights and trigger control.

And if you get bored, consider trying point shooting to help you with your shooting, particularly with shooting with both eyes open/closed, to help with flinching, with and without focus on sights, etc. - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-help-me-speed-up.824618/page-4#post-10902245

mjsdwash · Jun 12, 2020

the best advise I can give you, name your city and state and ask for someone to meet with you. this is a great forum, and people want to do the most they can. You can probably find someone who would show you all they know here, and if not, the same idea applies everywhere. Join a range, and ask for advice there. The best advice for shooting came from some random guy who saw me shooting 3" 25 yard groups, and gave me the "I was in the Marines" speach, and made me listen to him. A few days later, it was a 0.375 -25 yard group, find a good shooter, and pay attention is the best way

SGW Gunsmith · Jun 17, 2020

idek said:
I own several handguns (mostly 22lr) but I've never received any formal training, and I'm not a particularly good shot with them.

I could probably ask dozen questions, but I'll start with two.

1) I don't shoot my handguns real often (a few times a month maybe) and not in high volumes--maybe 50 rounds of .22. Less for my centerfire handguns. When I do shoot, it seems that my first 5 shots or so group reasonably well, and it gets worse after that. This is the opposite of my rifle shooting, where my first shots may be more spread out and tighten up as I go. Is this a known issue for other people? If so, what causes it and what could I do to correct it?

2) I've heard different recommendations about where to place the finger on the trigger. Some say place the pad of the finger on the face of the trigger. Others say place the crease of the joint on the face of the trigger. Is it just personal preference? Does one way have advantages over the other?

The title of your post was about handgun accuracy. One answer to your inquiry has been answered very well, even with a video attached. Try using the pad of your trigger finger on the trigger shoe.
Now, for the accuracy. Accuracy of the particular handgun depends on whether it's a revolver or a semi-auto. Consider, a revolver with 6, or more chambers, and how they line up with the barrel is quite different than a semi-auto pistol with only one chamber. Then, how well does the ammunition you're using team up with your handgun?
I use this contraption to test all my Ruger Mark pistols if only to see how they group with a particular brand and lot of .22 rimfire ammunition. I've also tested short barreled centerfire revolvers of LEO's who carry one as a backup for them to see just how accurate those 2-3 inch barrels are at up close and personal distances:

I know, not everyone has one of these available, nor do they want to, but for me, it's the only way I can eliminate any human influence involved with the testing process to determine just how the gun and ammunition will do together. After that, it's up to the owner to try and copy how that marriage works out.

LiveLife · Jun 17, 2020

SGW Gunsmith said:
Accuracy of the particular handgun depends on ... human influence involved with the testing process to determine just how the gun and ammunition will do together.

SGW Gunsmith · Jun 17, 2020

Considered? Heck, it's a proven fact that actual accuracy between a handgun and some chosen ammunition is only proven without the introduction of any human influence. The "American Rifleman" author could've done much better with a much better process. Various ammunition choices, and various firearms? Of course the results are going to vary.
By using the Ransom Rest and through my testing, I have definitely proven that the longer barreled Ruger Mark II pistols with 10-inch barrels group much tighter than a Ruger Mark III 22/45 having a much shorter 4 ½ inch barrel, hands down, and using the very same ammunition.

LiveLife · Jun 17, 2020

SGW Gunsmith said:
Considered? Heck, it's a proven fact that actual accuracy between a handgun and some chosen ammunition is only proven without the introduction of any human influence. The "American Rifleman" author could've done much better with a much better process. Various ammunition choices, and various firearms? Of course the results are going to vary.

Yes, I agree.

But what I realized over the decades of shooting is that most of us will never shoot and enjoy our pistols utilizing a mechanical rest like the Ransom Rest. Instead, we are going to shoot our pistols off hand, adding the variable of shooter input on trigger/grip and even occasional sneeze that seem to produce flyers out of the blue.

And let's not even talk about the addition of varying degrees of accuracy we get from factory and reloads.

So while mechanical accuracy of most factory pistols may be better than 1" groups at 7 yards, 2" groups at 10-15 yards and 3" groups at 25 yards, I use these as my reference for accuracy. So if my pistol/ammunition combination consistently produce better groups through good and bad range days (Is it the coffee factor?), it helps me determine whether the pistol is accurate.

But I agree, it's nice to have a mechanical rest that can eliminate the human factor but reality is that most of us lack such a resource.

SGW Gunsmith · Jun 17, 2020

None of my customers, or most handgun owners, are willing to own a Ransom Rest , either, but the idea involved is that there is one available in the event they want to do some testing. I'm sure that more than one of these set-ups has been sold, and that maybe another person doing gun repair or testing for accuracy, just might be found locally. The idea behind its use is to create a "benchmark", or goal, as to what the specific pistol or revolver is capable of, using the very same ammunition, handload or otherwise, to see if it can be accomplished by the firearm's owner.

LiveLife · Jun 17, 2020

SGW Gunsmith said:
None of my customers, or most handgun owners, are willing to own a Ransom Rest , either, but the idea involved is that there is one available in the event they want to do some testing.

Nice.

Wish I had a gunsmith like you locally.

a couple novice questions about handgun accuracy

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Similar threads