A home defense .223 rifle?

[bigdaa]

I can only say that you demand attention and a pulpit.
I have other things to do than fill your spare time and need for conflict.

I've presented my opinion here and further dialog with you takes away from the OP's desire of learning how to employ his or her AR for a home defense appliance.

While I can't tell you the right thing to do here, I can take a "higher road" concerning our confrontation.

You do not have any idea what I load, you don't know what gat I'll pick up for defense but I will give you a bit of advice you can count on:

What gun would I pick to defend my family and self in an emergency?


The gun that is loaded.




Good luck, PaisteMage.

Dave

 

[Warp]

I've presented my opinion here

Your opinion is factually incorrect.

 

[moxie]

Great advice above. I offer the following 2 comments:

For home defense keep it simple with plain "iron" sights. No scopes, etc. A Magpul MBUS rear sight and the generic issue front sight will do all you need. Also it's cheap.

Save the 30 round mags for backup. Keep a 20 rounder in the gun for first use. Much handier and allows you to shoot from prone easier.

 

[bigdaa]

"Your opinion is factually incorrect. "




Ahhhhhhh hell, they get that way now and then.

 

[Warp]

Great advice above. I offer the following 2 comments:

For home defense keep it simple with plain "iron" sights. No scopes, etc. A Magpul MBUS rear sight and the generic issue front sight will do all you need. Also it's cheap.

Save the 30 round mags for backup. Keep a 20 rounder in the gun for first use. Much handier and allows you to shoot from prone easier.

There is nothing wrong with using good old iron sights, especially if that's what you are comfortable/experienced/familiar with. Pretty sure some quality iron sights will never fail you.

There is also nothing wrong with a quality optic. Time and experience has shown some optics to be quicker/faster than iron sights, and perhaps better in low/very-low light situations as well. For a home defense gun I think you'd be hard pressed to beat an Aimpoint on that front, for example. There are also some very good illuminated reticle variable power scopes with a "True 1x" bottom end that would do well, but from a purely home defense standpoint I'd rather have an Aimpoint than a 1-4/6/8 optic, anyway.

As for the magazine size and prone shooting, some people prefer a 30 round magazine for prone shooting, choosing to use it as a monopod. Your own personal preferences, experiences, and shooting method/style will dictate whether you prefer 20 or 30 round magazines.

For a person new to the platform, try both and see what you prefer.

 

[PaisteMage]

Personally I have never used a red dot sight, just a standard 4x scope on rifles.

I might have to piece together the rifle depending on price or wait a little longer to find one complete set up.

I would prefer it to be pretty bare so I can work up and add options if I choose.

 

[MtnCreek]

I would prefer it to be pretty bare so I can work up and add options if I choose.

Good plan. I do suggest getting a flat top upper; that will give a lot more options down the road.

Shopping list should look something like:
Rifle w/ detachable carry handle/sight.
Min 2ea 20 or 30 rd Pmags.
Basic sling.
Cleaning equip.
Ammo.

Learn the rifle and try to get your hands on others at the range to see what you like.

Does Wis have any 'evil rifle' laws? A lot of the rifles that cannot have flash hiders / threaded barrels have brakes perm attached. That will make a loud rifle unbearable. I use plugs and muffs with braked AR's, so something to consider when shopping (if applicable).

 

[Ed Ames]

I suspect, but cannot prove, that if you are given the two following choices, B will be more effective at preventing overpenetration-related injury.

A) Buy a mid-tier AR 15, at $1000-1500, a bunch of magazines, and enough ammo to fill all the magazines. Take the gun to the range and shoot it, off a bench, but not so much that all your magazines are empty. Take it home and feel safer.

B) Buy a Mossberg Maverick 88 12ga at $190, about $800 worth of various ammo, and spend the rest of your money on tactical shotgun training. If you have any ammo left at the end of that, spend it shooting at moving targets or while moving. Keep $5 worth of the ammo in reserve for defensive use.

Obviously the best choice would be combining .223 and training but if you are dealing with a $2k starting budget you aren't going to have a lot of spare cash to pay for the training or practice.

But that's not what the OP was asking....

There is a lot of good advice on choosing ARs. I can't really add to that body of knowledge except to say that the AR is the only type of gun I have personally seen someone take a hammer (OK, a hard plastic mallet) to at a range to clear a jam. The range actually had a hammer on hand for just that use apparently. Worse, they failed and had to bag up the apparently still loaded rifle so they could take it to a gunsmith. To me that says, "don't cheap out."

Good red dots are awesome. A good sight can cost about as much as the rifle and is worth it. Not as important as training/practice, but it should definitely come before the appearance mods.

 

[Warp]

There is a lot of good advice on choosing ARs. I can't really add to that body of knowledge except to say that the AR is the only type of gun I have personally seen someone take a hammer (OK, a hard plastic mallet) to at a range to clear a jam. The range actually had a hammer on hand for just that use apparently. Worse, they failed and had to bag up the apparently still loaded rifle so they could take it to a gunsmith. To me that says, "don't cheap out."

That does say don't cheap out.

And I'm betting there is a good chance they were shooting cheap steel case Russian manufactured ammo.

 

[MtnCreek]

^ Or improperly set up seating die causing a slight bulge at the body/shoulder. Release the bolt carrier and smack the forward assist on one of those and it will lock it up pretty good....so I've been told.

 

[TIMC]

Compact and easy to handle in confined space. Just picked up this RR AR 15 pistol for $900 new. I added a couple of goodies, With the suppressor it is sweet.

 

[Art Eatman]

bigdaa, I generally limit my comments to what I know from experience. I do figure, however, that some sixty-plus years with all manner of centerfires has taught me a little bit.

 

[Ed Ames]

Or improperly set up seating die causing a slight bulge at the body/shoulder. Release the bolt carrier and smack the forward assist on one of those and it will lock it up pretty good....so I've been told

Was that in relation to the mallet story?

I don't know any real details about that except a) they seemed to have boxes of factory ammo on their table, b) the problem was keeping them from unloading, and perhaps disassembling, the rifle, c) the owners of the rifle couldn't figure the problem out, so they sought help from the rangemaster, who poked around and went away to get his hammer, and who eventually gave up, and d) by this point I was concerned enough about what was happening a couple tables down from me that I had stopped shooting and listened as the range master told them to make sure the safety was on, pack it up, and take it to a gunsmith to get it unloaded. A forward assist wouldn't help.

I think probably some steel case ammo glued itself into a hot chamber. They were treating it as a live round but it may not have been. I have heard similar horror stories about rifles with loc-tite instead of staking and the like too though. Either way, it ended the owner's shooting day and limited the effectiveness of the weapon.

 

[mac66]

Personally if I was going to recommend a carbine for protection inside a home I would recommend a pistol caliber carbine in the same caliber as my pistol. Since I really don't see the point of a pistol caliber in a rifle, I would recommend just using the pistol. It is a lot easier to move around in the house with.

I would highly recommend an AR15 for mutant, zombie, biker, aliens invading from outer space however.

 

[JShirley]

PCCs will penetrate more than standard .223 with almost any ammo.

Shotguns with 00 can be effective at close range, but 00 will pentrate 50-100% more (22") than .223 in tissue.

John

 

[C0untZer0]

Tavor TAR-21

It has a full length 18" barrel so you're not losing any velocity or creating gigantic fireballs with some short barrel, but it's very short OAL - 28"

 

[dprice3844444]

inexpensive smith & wesson sport ar-15 will do just fine.if you have to give it up because you had to shoot somebody,it's less of a financial hit than a colt,or any of the other major manufacturers.then you can buy more ammo

 

[Roadking Rider]

Mini 14 ranch rifle. There short, light, and very reliable.

 

[Ar180shooter]

You won't get a G36 here in the US.

If I were in your boat I would take an AR any day. The Mini 14s are overpriced right now, and ARs are rapidly decreasing in price. Find yourself a Colt 6920 and be happy.

Yah, an SL8 converted with a G36 lower/folding stock is as close as you're going to get, and you're talking $4000 give or take for the rifle and a properly done conversion.

 

[Ar180shooter]

Tavor TAR-21

It has a full length 18" barrel so you're not losing any velocity or creating gigantic fireballs with some short barrel, but it's very short OAL - 28"

That's a good idea. I love the Tavors. They point well and if the U.S. manufactured ones are like the Israeli ones, they are built to last.

 

[sixgunner455]

Ed Ames - why should he should the AR off the bench, besides to zero it (done properly, that's 6-9 rounds)?

I can certainly see the economic viewpoint on the shotgun vs the AR, but the fact remains that the AR recoils much less (shot-to-shot recovery), holds more ammo, has greater effective range when needed, penetrates house materials less when you're smart about the ammo you load in it, and is shorter and more compact than a properly stocked shotgun (pistol gripped shotguns being very unpleasant to shoot at all, and less effective than one with a stock).

If you can afford the AR, get one, and learn to use it. If you can't, get a shotgun and learn to use it. Ignore Mr. "shoot two blasts into the air" and get the training Mr. Ames suggests. In the end, neither is a magic talisman. They are simply tools in the hands of a trained or untrained person. You are the one who makes the decision on which to buy, and whether you will be trained or not.

 

[Ed Ames]

Why?

Because traditional rifle ranges usually only allow shooting rifles off a bench, Wisconsin doesn't offer the same public land shooting opportunities as the west, and most people don't have enough private land for shooting. That leaves tactical training which is expensive.

If you spend $1100 on a colt 69xx (whatever), $500 on accessories including magazines and sights (easy with an AR), and $400 on ammo, there is no money left for training. You fire off your 600 rounds or so and go home.

I wasn't trying to argue that a Maverick 88 is better than a colt 69xx. I was arguing that a person with $1000 worth of real training is less likely to get into overpenetration trouble than someone who has only shot paper at a traditional range.

 

[Warp]

Why?

Because traditional rifle ranges usually only allow shooting rifles off a bench, Wisconsin doesn't offer the same public land shooting opportunities as the west, and most people don't have enough private land for shooting. That leaves tactical training which is expensive.

If you spend $1100 on a colt 69xx (whatever), $500 on accessories including magazines and sights (easy with an AR), and $400 on ammo, there is no money left for training. You fire off your 600 rounds or so and go home.

I wasn't trying to argue that a Maverick 88 is better than a colt 69xx. I was arguing that a person with $1000 worth of real training is less likely to get into overpenetration trouble than someone who has only shot paper at a traditional range.

http://www.appleseedinfo.org/search-states-display.php?qstate=WI&statename=Wisconsin

BTW: If the budget is tight, don't spend $500 on accessories. Like I am pretty sure I said earlier in this thread, spend $90 on (6) magazines and whatever it costs to get a sling. There are your accessories...finished. Even if you go all out on the sling you are looking at $200 or less. Probably less. `

 

[sixgunner455]

I didn't think that you were arguing that the shotgun>AR, just that training and practice>just benched AR shooting, and I couldn't understand why a guy would limit himself like that.

I live in the west, so perhaps my perspective is skewed, but even "traditional" rifle ranges here allow position shooting - standing, sitting, kneeling, prone. You may not be able to shoot and move, but at least, you aren't sitting in a chair.

Being that I am in AZ, I do go out on public lands with friends and arrange tactical lanes for rifle, pistol, and shotgun. Most of us are combat vets, so we are familiar with the AR to begin with. If I weren't so familiar with it, I would definitely be seeking out some additional training. Training may be expensive, but that hurts less than not getting it and needing it.

eta: +1 on Appleseed. It's not the most "tactical" of training (hard to shoot and move in a line like that), but for someone unfamiliar with rifles, it is probably the least expensive/most effective for the dollar rifle shooting training you can get.

 

[Ed Ames]

Warp, I've never been to an Appleseed, but everything I've read including their information says it is NOT combat firearm training. It is basic marksmanship. I think that's great and it is certainly better than nothing but it's apples and oranges. And even if you only spend $100 on accessories, $400 won't cover the cost of any reputable carbine course I've ever heard of.

Sixgunner, yes Arizona is warping your perspective. I wish I still had the same warp! I spent years able to head out onto empty BLM land and do any sort of shooting I wanted. The other side of the Rockies is different in my experience. Beyond that, Wisconsin has special factors. I have family there and while I'm not an expert I'm more than passingly familiar. It's partly suburban Chicago, Madison wishes it was San Francisco, and most of the shooting that does exist is Fud-centric. That doesn't help.

The OP doesn't sound like a combat vet.

Ideally the OP would get an AR AND training. If he can't afford both, he should seriously think about priorities.