A home defense .223 rifle?

[allaroundhunter]

spend $90 on (6) magazines

I don't know where the heck you are finding those prices right now...

And I would not recommend an Appleseed for the OP, he would be in greater need of a basic defensive carbine course (if he only has the funds for a single class).

$400 won't cover the cost of any reputable carbine course I've ever heard of.

Perhaps it won't get you a class at Gunsite or TacPro, but there are other instructors who don't charge $800+ who are plenty qualified. I have a friend who is a former Army SF soldier who now runs a training program. $400 will get you a class with him (and will cover the ammo you have to buy for it), and it will get you a very good class. Police department SWAT teams in the area use him as an instructor and he has made a good name for himself.

 

[Warp]

Wrap, I've never been to an Appleseed, but everything I've read including their information says it is NOT combat firearm training. It is basic marksmanship.

Fundamental. Not basic.

I think that's great and it is certainly better than nothing but it's apples and oranges.

I disagree. The fundamentals are the fundamentals.

And even if you only spend $100 on accessories, $400 won't cover the cost of any reputable carbine course I've ever heard of.

No, it won't. $2,000 isn't enough to get the rifle, magazines, ammo, a sling, AND a good tactical/carbine course. It just isn't. No argument there.



Appleseed teaches the fundamentals. It puts you on a clock. It includes shooting standing, seated/kneeling, and prone...transitions from standing to seated/kneeling and standing to prone...and reloads.

An Appleseed weekend or three is a FANTASTIC place to start, and it sure as hell fixes that supposed problem about only being able to shoot from the bench at local ranges.

Appleseed will cover topics including, but not limited to:

Using a USGI web sling as a shooting aid in all positions as both a loop sling and a hasty sling, and possibly a hasty-hasty sling; the six steps of firing the shot; natural point of aim; steady hold factors in the three main positions of standing, seated, and prone; what MOA is and how to calculate and use it and how to use it to adjust your sights; talking targets/shot group diagnosis, Liberty; heritage; and depending on the range and specific shoot some full distance shooting and discussion on target identification and range estimation.

Now, if you know all of these things like the back of your you hand, if you can consistently put 4 MOA holes in paper from an unsupported prone position, if you can rapid fire hit a man sized silhouette at 200 yards seated, if you can recite the six steps of firing the shot to me, maybe you should be going to the Appleseeds so that you can take an orange hat and start giving back. Otherwise you might want to consider going so that you can learn of those things (and much more)....and worry about taking the hat later.

 

[Ed Ames]

Sounds like basic marksmanship to me. The stuff my ex-USMC (of the era where they used Garands in basic training) father taught me before I had ever fired a real gun.

Which means it sounds like great stuff. I like it.

But it's not the same. More to the point, I don't think it is enough different than shooting from a bench to make a difference in a real-world defensive situation.

 

[Warp]

Sounds like basic marksmanship to me. The stuff my ex-USMC (of the era where they used Garands in basic training) father taught me before I had ever fired a real gun.

Which means it sounds like great stuff. I like it.

But it's not the same. More to the point, I don't think it is enough different than shooting from a bench to make a difference in a real-world defensive situation.

Fundamental. Not basic.

Yes, the Marine Corps teaches all of the marines fundamental marksmanship, to this day. Pretty similar stuff to what you get at an Appleseed, from what I understand.

Ed Ames, perhaps you learned most (or all) of that from your father. But the OP of this thread may not know it. And I am of the opinion that anybody and everybody who wants to be competent with a rifle ought to know these things. They are fundamental.

And it is VERY different from going to the range, sitting down at a bench, and firing away. For one thing, just going to the range and firing from the bench isn't going to teach you a darn thing about, well, pretty much any of the stuff you learn at an Appleseed (or a USMC boot camp). And it will be from a bench. It won't be standing. It won't be kneeling. It won't be seated. And it won't be prone unsupported. It may not even be "rapid fire" either, as many ranges have rules against that.

An Appleseed weekend or three is an excellent place to start and an excellent way to learn the fundamentals.

And the most it will cost anybody is $80 for the full weekend. Some (such as women and youth) are less expensive. And one youth shoots free with every paid adult.

 

[Ed Ames]

Moving past semantics, I don't think the skills from an Appleseed are enough for the use the OP intends. It isn't a slam against the Appleseed concept or intended to discourage anyone from going to an Appleseed, but an acknowledgement that they are apples and oranges.

Appleseed doesn't even try to provide defensive carbine training. A defensive carbine course may not even try to provide sling training. They are different.

 

[Warp]

Moving past semantics, I don't think the skills from an Appleseed are enough for the use the OP intends. It isn't a slam against the Appleseed concept or intended to discourage anyone from going to an Appleseed, but an acknowledgement that they are apples and oranges.

Appleseed doesn't even try to provide defensive carbine training. A defensive carbine course may not even try to provide sling training. They are different.

So then do both.

Is there a specific carbine course that you would like to insist the OP attend? When, where, and at what cost?

What, in your opinion, is the least amount of tactical style training a person should have before using a firearm for home defense?

 

[Ed Ames]

From the bottom up...

Set up some targets at different ranges, including fairly close. Set up obstacles. Have a course you must move through. Use a timer. Ideally have competition. Then set up some different real-world objects as targets. Shoot them with a pistol, a pistol caliber rifle, a shotgun with birdshot/buckshot/slugs, a low/intermediate power rifle (.223), and a high power rifle, moving and still, in different positions, around/under obstacles. Do this safely, properly, quickly. That's the minimum. Out west a group of friends can do that on their own for the price of ammo, gas, and trash bags. The further east you go, the more you need to join some formal training in order to have access to a safe place to do that. By the time you hit Texas it seems to cost about $600/day or more. It might actually be cheaper to take a vacation to the west, camping and shooting on BLM land, but most people won't do it.

No, nothing specific. Such things change all the time anyway.

Doing both is fine and I never said a word against the idea. But only doing the Appleseed is not enough.

 

[PaisteMage]

Some things to consider in all your wonderful comments.

My firend, who is an NRA certified instructor, and who has over 20 years in the Army has said he would give me lessons on HIS gun until I can get one. That doesnt help since I wouldnt be learning MY gun...but still a few free lessons getting to know the platform doesnt hurt.

A second friend , who is also quite familiar with the AR platform, has one and offered me to shoot.

As far as Wisconsin rifle etiquette at the range I am unsure of VERY specifics.

Most people shoot from bench, so I ASSUME that that is what you have to do at the range. I may be wrong, never really looked into it.

Another question...

Is 5.56 like a .357 (how you can shoot .38s out of it as well) where you can shoot .223 out of it as well?

This purchase is going to be somewhere around the begining of the year and funds are being put towards the rifle purchase bits at a time.

Hence why my knowledge seeking.

 

[Warp]

Some things to consider in all your wonderful comments.

My firend, who is an NRA certified instructor, and who has over 20 years in the Army has said he would give me lessons on HIS gun until I can get one. That doesnt help since I wouldnt be learning MY gun...but still a few free lessons getting to know the platform doesnt hurt.

A second friend , who is also quite familiar with the AR platform, has one and offered me to shoot.

As far as Wisconsin rifle etiquette at the range I am unsure of VERY specifics.

Most people shoot from bench, so I ASSUME that that is what you have to do at the range. I may be wrong, never really looked into it.

Another question...

Is 5.56 like a .357 (how you can shoot .38s out of it as well) where you can shoot .223 out of it as well?

This purchase is going to be somewhere around the begining of the year and funds are being put towards the rifle purchase bits at a time.

Hence why my knowledge seeking.

Don't assume. Most people shoot from the bench because they don't know the fundamentals and wouldn't hit very well if they got off the bench and used unsupported field positions, and a lot of people just shoot slow fire for pretty 3 shot groups they can show to other people. Or they are just sighting in a hunting rifle that will be fired in a similar fashion, and have no need to get off the bench.



Yes, you can shoot .223 out of a 5.56 chamber. Perfectly fine and very common. No reason not to.

You should not shoot 5.56 out of a .223 chamber, but any AR you encounter that isn't a POS will be chambered in 5.56 NATO. (or .223 wylde, which can handle 5.56 anyway)

If you don't plan to get the rifle for 6+ months, ammo should be less expensive by then.

 

[PaisteMage]

THere are things I know a lot about: drums, cars, kids, being a dad.

If my ignorance somewhat seems appalling to you old school AR guys, I applaud your patience.

I have been reading a lot lately about the topic and wanted some perspective from the community at large.

The article referenced, the forum mentioned, and the website suggested I have all read today.

Thanks for an upstart into this platform to all on this forum.

Despite the inevitable debates on ballistics, round "superiority" or any of that, this has been informative.

 

[Iramo94]

For safety, I'll add that unlike the .38/.357 analogy, 5.56 CAN fit into a .223 chamber. The gun is not going to save you by having a jam the way a .38 revolver would. That's why just getting a 5.56 chambered gun would be the best.

 

[sixgunner455]

Don't be afraid to ask questions. Ignorance + questions and a willing attitude = a learning. We are all still learning. Anyone in the shooting sports who is serious about them is interested in mentoring new shooters.

Welcome!

My son and I just bought a drum kit from a guy on Craigslist. Came with a Paiste hi-hat. We are noobs in that area - I ask my friends who are drummers all kinds of ignorant, noob questions.

This is no different.

Oh, the .223 vs 5.56 thing: 5.56 chambers are cut with slightly different dimensions. Military 5.56 ammo is made with longer than standard .223 bullets, and 5.56 chambers are cut to accomodate those bullets. .223 functions just fine in 5.56 chambers. 5.56 ammo *may* have problems functioning in .223 cut chambers, but most rifles with .223 chambers are match/target/bolt action hunting rifles - and even most of those will not give you trouble with 5.56 ammo. An AR with a match chamber may be more picky about what ammo it will function with and shoot well with, but those kinds of specialty barrels and rifles aren't what you are talking about, and you probably won't run into any issues like that if you buy a bog-standard AR carbine from a reputable manufacturer. You just won't. I wouldn't give it another thought unless you decide to get a more specialized gun later on.

 

[76shuvlinoff]

I'm more of a lever guy but late last fall I bought the first AR I ever handled, a new Colt 6920, fortunately I bought a couple thousand rds of .223 about the same time ... and then the world fell apart. Now I'm just saving my nickles for a good red dot.

I paid more than these guys that put their own together but I sure didn't pay the prices I saw in the next 60 days. I'm glad to see prices are coming down with people financially, and better yet legally able to get into the AR platform.

 

[PaisteMage]

To those kind people that have given their input thus far:

IS traditional direct gas impingement or the piston/op rod style the preferred method for someone new to the AR setup?

Keep in mind I am halfway through school in Automotive technology and machinery does not make me wince. I am looking for efficiency and longevity
of the rifle. What was YOUR first set up modeled with?

Been doing some research...

 

[Art Eatman]

"IS traditional direct gas impingement or the piston/op rod style the preferred method..."

For all that some people get all emotional about it, I can't see that it makes much difference for a basic AR-15 rifle. Too many "road tests" which pretty much show equality.

 

[Warp]

To those kind people that have given their input thus far:

IS traditional direct gas impingement or the piston/op rod style the preferred method for someone new to the AR setup?

Keep in mind I am halfway through school in Automotive technology and machinery does not make me wince. I am looking for efficiency and longevity
of the rifle. What was YOUR first set up modeled with?

Been doing some research...

Direct impingement. No question.

DI is what the rifles were designed for and as.

It is the industry standard.

I'll keep this short and just say get a standard regular old DI rifle.

Don't be afraid to ask questions. Ignorance + questions and a willing attitude = a learning. We are all still learning. Anyone in the shooting sports who is serious about them is interested in mentoring new shooters.

Welcome!

My son and I just bought a drum kit from a guy on Craigslist. Came with a Paiste hi-hat. We are noobs in that area - I ask my friends who are drummers all kinds of ignorant, noob questions.

This is no different.

Oh, the .223 vs 5.56 thing: 5.56 chambers are cut with slightly different dimensions. Military 5.56 ammo is made with longer than standard .223 bullets, and 5.56 chambers are cut to accomodate those bullets. .223 functions just fine in 5.56 chambers. 5.56 ammo *may* have problems functioning in .223 cut chambers, but most rifles with .223 chambers are match/target/bolt action hunting rifles - and even most of those will not give you trouble with 5.56 ammo. An AR with a match chamber may be more picky about what ammo it will function with and shoot well with, but those kinds of specialty barrels and rifles aren't what you are talking about, and you probably won't run into any issues like that if you buy a bog-standard AR carbine from a reputable manufacturer. You just won't. I wouldn't give it another thought unless you decide to get a more specialized gun later on.

Concerning the safety of shooting one in the other, the big deal is that 5.56 is a higher pressure round than .223. That's the main reason you don't want to shoot 5.56 in a standard .223 chamber.

 

[Art Eatman]

All that's different between a 5.56 chamber and a .223 chamber is the length of the leade. The leade of the 5.56 chamber is a tad longer so as to accommodate longer bullets. The chamber pressure of the cartridges is as close to being the same as makes no nevermind. If the milspec round were all that much higher pressure, we'd have blown-up rifles all over the place.

 

[Warp]

All that's different between a 5.56 chamber and a .223 chamber is the length of the leade. The leade of the 5.56 chamber is a tad longer so as to accommodate longer bullets. The chamber pressure of the cartridges is as close to being the same as makes no nevermind. If the milspec round were all that much higher pressure, we'd have blown-up rifles all over the place.

55,000 PSI vs 62,366 PSI. Only about 13% higher max pressure on 5.56, I suppose.

 

[bigdaa]

55,000 PSI vs 62,366 PSI. Only about 13% higher max pressure on 5.56, I suppose.

From our good friends at Wikipedia:


"According to the official Commission Internationale Permanente pour l'Epreuve des Armes à Feu Portatives (C.I.P.) guidelines the .223 Remington case can handle up to 430 MPa (62,366 psi) piezo pressure. In C.I.P. regulated countries every rifle cartridge combo has to be proofed at 125% of this maximum C.I.P. pressure to certify for sale to consumers. This is equal to the NATO maximum service pressure guideline for the 5.56x45mm NATO cartridge.

The SAAMI pressure limit for the .223 Remington is set at 379.212 MPa (55,000 psi), piezo pressure.[5]"

 

[Warp]

What effect does the chamber dimension have on pressure? If a 5.56 chamber is cut to allow for the longer bullet, and one of those already higher pressure 5.56 rounds is shoved into a .223 chamber, what does that do?

I have always only seen people who ought to know say not to fire 5.56 in a standard .223 chamber.

 

[allaroundhunter]

What effect does the chamber dimension have on pressure? If a 5.56 chamber is cut to allow for the longer bullet, and one of those already higher pressure 5.56 rounds is shoved into a .223 chamber, what does that do?

I have always only seen people who ought to know say not to fire 5.56 in a standard .223 chamber.

Nothing much happens at all. If anything, the case will stick in the chamber. The added pressure will still be forced out behind the bullet. I have never seen or heard about a legitimate incident in which firing 5.56 out of a .223 chamber caused problems.

 

[PaisteMage]

Thanks guys again for some clarification and insight.

I realize this may be opening a can of information worms! There is so many variables to consider.

How much did some of you spend on your first?

Again just looking consensus and opinions.

 

[Warp]

Thanks guys again for some clarification and insight.

I realize this may be opening a can of information worms! There is so many variables to consider.

How much did some of you spend on your first?

Again just looking consensus and opinions.

The AR15/M4 type platform is extremely modular and the options are seemingly endless.

If you don't watch yourself it gets expensive FAST.

My first/primary AR has a running-total expense of about $3,500 right now. It adds up fast. Over $1k for the rifle, $1k pretty easily to mount a nice optic (could be 2-3x that much), then misc for all the rest (rail, trigger, grip, stock, weapon light, etc)

 

[sixgunner455]

I built a pencil-barreled 16" KISS carbine for ~$650.00. It has a fixed carry handle upper, and works just like every rifle I ever carried in the Army (M16A1, M16A2, M4). It weighs about 6# and is my primary home defense weapon.

I have, this year, made a swap top upper for it in 6.8x43mm, and I am slightly embarrassed to admit to how much I have in it. I still don't have a dedicated bolt carrier for it, because I refuse to pay stupid money for one. It's wearing a big, heavy Zeiss scope that brings the total for just the upper, as it sits, to nearly $2k. It's functional now (and very, very accurate), but it's primary intent is as a hunting rifle, so I'm not going to leave the Zeiss target scope on it. I've got a couple of light, compact scopes on the way, so we'll see what it ends up weighing and looking like. Sooner or later, I'll probably pick up another lower reciever and then start building a proper lower for it, just because.

It's a project in progress.

Both of those uppers are DI. I wouldn't even consider a piston. Who wants the weight?

 

[Ed Ames]

My first started out a bit under 1k ready to shoot with one magazine. Not the cheapest it could've been.

By the time I stopped it was about $2700 not counting the .22lr upper or the magazines. That was red dot, magnifier, flip up backup sight, tricked out trigger, tritium front post, strap, replacement PG, and so on. I could easily have spent hundreds more and claimed that I was still making it "better". Of course that left me with some spare parts I could probably resell but who am I kidding? I won't.

There are minor differences in what I would do if I was starting over... E.g. I got a back up iron sight (buis) that had bullet drop compensation, but a front tritium post. Well, the rear sight is almost impossible to line up in the dark. I figured cheek weld would make that a non issue (as it is a non-issue with my m1a that has a similar configuration) but I was wrong. I should have used a much larger aperture rear sight, perhaps with tritium there too.... but overall I think it's nifty.