earlthegoat2
Member
The last thing the industry needs right now is a new cartridge.
A new 9mm round to supplement the 380?
- Thread starter Peter M. Eick
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srtolly
Member
I can't even believe this is a discussion. We have 9x18 and it is a good round, I wish it was easier to find. I have a couple guns that fire it and they are more comfortable to shoot than the mini 9x19 offerings, not much bigger than many .380s on the market.
Vodoun da Vinci
Member
It's just an idea. For me? I find that loading .380 hot and loading 9mm a little light there is not really room between them for another cartridge. So, I'd not really be interested in another caliber between 9mm and .380.
I'd like to see more options in pocket sized .380 and 9mm pistols with locked breech designs and polymer frames and more bullet geometry and weights for .380....with that option I could theoretically load a 100 gr. or even 115 gr. .380 round to pretty near 9mm "lite" without the need for a whole 'nuther animal.
VooDoo
I'd like to see more options in pocket sized .380 and 9mm pistols with locked breech designs and polymer frames and more bullet geometry and weights for .380....with that option I could theoretically load a 100 gr. or even 115 gr. .380 round to pretty near 9mm "lite" without the need for a whole 'nuther animal.
VooDoo
WestKentucky
Member
The important question (to me I guess) is why guns aren't chambered for either/or. They are so similar it seems like a spring loaded face could be used to go deep for .380 and then the spring compress to allow for a 9mm round...but I'm not big on autos so my thinking may be flawed. Either way it's a whole nuther discussion.
Peter M. Eick
Member
The taper is so you can't shove it in a 380 auto. Remember the goal is 9mm ballistics out of a 380 carry gun with a barrel change and a light bullet.
You can't do it with the 9x18 easily, 9mm ultra is out as it is too long. I thought about calling it a 9mm GAP but I figured that was a proprietary round to Glock so I passed.
So in a nutshell as the 2nd poster pointed out lighter bullets are the key.
Take a 9mm round, put it on a lathe, nock the rim back to 380 Auto size and load up the round with a 115 grn or lighter TCHP to 9mm pressure levels to 1" COL. Now then swap a barrel in some 380's that a locked breach and get the small gun of 380 size with 9mm power levels.
Yes I am just shoehorning a round in where one does not exist today. Isn't that the game of cartridge development?
To address other folks comment. 38 Super is out, too long for a G42 conversion. Mak is out due to bullet size. Taper is in to keep it out of 380's and so it matches 9mm Luger profiles.
I agree that there is no real need for it. Just its an interesting idea. You can argue there was no need for the 45GAP, 41 Action Express, 9mm Federal and others. But they sure can be fun to play with. Maybe the 355 auto is the next 40?
(I doubt it...)
You can't do it with the 9x18 easily, 9mm ultra is out as it is too long. I thought about calling it a 9mm GAP but I figured that was a proprietary round to Glock so I passed.
So in a nutshell as the 2nd poster pointed out lighter bullets are the key.
Take a 9mm round, put it on a lathe, nock the rim back to 380 Auto size and load up the round with a 115 grn or lighter TCHP to 9mm pressure levels to 1" COL. Now then swap a barrel in some 380's that a locked breach and get the small gun of 380 size with 9mm power levels.
Yes I am just shoehorning a round in where one does not exist today. Isn't that the game of cartridge development?
To address other folks comment. 38 Super is out, too long for a G42 conversion. Mak is out due to bullet size. Taper is in to keep it out of 380's and so it matches 9mm Luger profiles.
I agree that there is no real need for it. Just its an interesting idea. You can argue there was no need for the 45GAP, 41 Action Express, 9mm Federal and others. But they sure can be fun to play with. Maybe the 355 auto is the next 40?
(I doubt it...)
See my posts #14 and #17 to see why you can't fire 9mm in a 380, even with a conversion barrel. Asking this question is like asking why can't we shoot 10mm in our 40SW handguns by stuffing more powder in there and calling it a day. Or why doesn't Double Tap take the 38 special case and load it to 357 maximum power levels. Or why not load 9mm to 357 SIG or 9x23 power levels, for that matter. Does anyone see a problem with this? There's a bigger difference between 380 and 9mm than the case dimensions belie.
Now going the other way and trying to shoot 380 out of a 9mm (with conversion barrel or new cartridge) is also problematic. Even if 380 were strong enough to cycle a 9mm handgun, which in most cases it will not without some major modifications, there's no market for a 9mm-380 conversion for an obvious reason. 380 costs way more than 9mm.
Lots o folks have accidentally loaded a 380 round in a 9mm semiauto. The round will usually chamber and fire, just fine. It won't come close to cycling the action, though. And the brass gets puffed out or possibly cracked - but that can easily be fixed by a conversion barrel, once you sort out the other problems and convince someone to buy it.
There is one gun that can shoot both. It's a revolver called the Medusa that can fire 380, 9mm, 38S&W, 38 special, or 357 mag, IIRC.
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Peter M. Eick
Member
Your point on #17 is well taken. Since I would propose light bullets and short rounds, then we might have to experiment and see what velocities we can get out of say a G42 before the slide thrust gets too fast and too quick.
To me this will be a fun thing to think about and play with. I will see if I can get my hands of a G42 and a spare barrel and get a 9mm reamer.
The fun of wildcatting is making something new and different for the fun of it.
I figure I can lathe off some rims of some 9mm's to be 380 sized and ream the barrel and then work up from 380 loads and see what I get. That sounds like a fun project for later this summer when 42's are more readily available.
To me this will be a fun thing to think about and play with. I will see if I can get my hands of a G42 and a spare barrel and get a 9mm reamer.
The fun of wildcatting is making something new and different for the fun of it.
I figure I can lathe off some rims of some 9mm's to be 380 sized and ream the barrel and then work up from 380 loads and see what I get. That sounds like a fun project for later this summer when 42's are more readily available.
If you look at these 380 ACP tests out of short barrels by ShootingTheBull410, it is rare to find 380 rounds that penetrate through 4 layers of denim, expand reliably and penetrate past 12" Precision One's loading of the XTP seems to do it, but a lot of other rounds failed.
It seems like the bullets need to be going just a little faster, but there is obviously an upper limit on what the current 380 case can handle.
I don't think it would take much to get the 90gr to 103gr rounds going fast enough to hit that sweet spot of 12" to 14" penetration and .425 to .450" expansion. And that little increase in velocity is not going to make a 380 pistol seem like a 9mm.
It seems like the bullets need to be going just a little faster, but there is obviously an upper limit on what the current 380 case can handle.
I don't think it would take much to get the 90gr to 103gr rounds going fast enough to hit that sweet spot of 12" to 14" penetration and .425 to .450" expansion. And that little increase in velocity is not going to make a 380 pistol seem like a 9mm.
PointOneSeven
Member
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2006
- Messages
- 169
.327 Magnum in a semi-auto. Mini Desert Eagle 
.
.ALREADY EXISTS--9m.m. ULTRA/POLICE
I have shot a SIG 230 in 9m.m. ULTRA/POLICE. The round is still sold by FIOCCHI as the 9m.m. ULTRA. This round kicks like a .380ACP +P and is only available with a full metal jacket round.
I think it would be a good candidate for a high performance bullet.
If the mono-metal bullets like the BARNES XP or even a hollow point bullet like the GOLD DOT were used in an 80 to 90 grain load, it should be able to top 1,100 fps which is usually the minimum for guaranteed expansion. An 80 grain bullet might even reach 1,200 fps.
At this point, I would not hold out much hope for it. Just getting ammo for popular rounds and guns is difficult enough.
Jim
I have shot a SIG 230 in 9m.m. ULTRA/POLICE. The round is still sold by FIOCCHI as the 9m.m. ULTRA. This round kicks like a .380ACP +P and is only available with a full metal jacket round.
I think it would be a good candidate for a high performance bullet.
If the mono-metal bullets like the BARNES XP or even a hollow point bullet like the GOLD DOT were used in an 80 to 90 grain load, it should be able to top 1,100 fps which is usually the minimum for guaranteed expansion. An 80 grain bullet might even reach 1,200 fps.
At this point, I would not hold out much hope for it. Just getting ammo for popular rounds and guns is difficult enough.
Jim
ApacheCoTodd
member
Re thread: Biggest Cartridge Flops...
Will this be the ext contender? Seems like an answer looking for a question to me.
Will this be the ext contender? Seems like an answer looking for a question to me.
huntershooter
Member
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2005
- Messages
- 1,058
I certainly wouldn't invest my money in developing this new round-and would be surprised if anyone else does.
Another "ingenious solution to a non-existent problem" scenario in my book.
Another "ingenious solution to a non-existent problem" scenario in my book.
greyling22
Member
my thoughts exactly. A taper is a terrible design from the standpoint of a reloader. The "new 9mm" I want to see is a 9mm luger chamber reamed out to be a straight walled cartrige. call it the 9.3mm or something. Ideally you can use 9mm brass, 9mm slides etc and all you need is a new barrel. Think of it as a 9mm makarov magnum.
LouisianaAviator
Member
I don't see a reason not to just go with a 9x19mm pistol. You can get 9x19mm pistols that are about the same size as a small .380 pocket pistol, and typically are much more reliable and have a bit more power to them.
I don't see much point in using any other caliber except 9x19mm in small pocket guns. If you can fit a small pocket .380, you can fit a small pocket 9mm.
I don't see much point in using any other caliber except 9x19mm in small pocket guns. If you can fit a small pocket .380, you can fit a small pocket 9mm.
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