Muzzle blast/noise level - 9mm vs .380

[ShadyGrove]

Hey all,

My wife enjoys going to the range with me, but she is pretty sensitive to muzzle blast/noise. Even with plugs and muffs, she still doesn't like shooting heavy calibers. She'll usually just stick to shooting 22lr for this reason. She has fired my GP100 with some mild 38 special target loads, and did fine with it. However, she doesn't really shoot well with the heavy double action trigger on revolvers.

I am trying to determine what would be the best choice for a low muzzle blast, semi-auto centerfire handgun she could try moving up to.

I was thinking 380 could be the ticket since it is a relatively low pressure round, but pretty much all of them have short barrel lengths in the 3 to 3.75 inch range. I know short barrels tend to increase muzzle blast/concussion and noise.

Conversely, I was also considering a 9mm with a long barrel, like a 5-inch 1911. But I know 9mm is generally a high pressure cartridge.

My question is - which of these would have less perceived muzzle blast/concussion/noise:

- A 380 with a 3 to 3.75 inch barrel (ex. Glock 42, Bersa Thunder, S&W EZ 380, etc.)

- Or a 1911 9mm with a 5 inch barrel?

I'm wondering if the reduced pressure of the 380 would be offset by the shorter barrel, making it a wash in the end. If so, then the 9mm would make more sense since ammo is so much cheaper. But I don't mind paying more for 380 ammo if its a noticeably milder cartridge to shoot in this scenario.

Thanks!

 

[LiveLife]

I do not enjoy shooting short barreled 380Auto/9mm/40S&W/45ACP subcompacts that produce sharper recoil snap with louder muzzle bark. I prefer longer barreled fullsize/compact pistols that produce lesser felt recoil and quieter muzzle bark.

So why do we keep forcing our wives and girlfriends with smaller hands more sensitive to muzzle blast to shoot such pistols?

(FYI - Military service, shooting guns, exposure to loud noise like operating machinery/yard equipment/listening to music, etc. above 96 decibels without proper hearing protection will lead to higher frequency/hearing loss and make us less sensitive to muzzle blast )

Regarding recoil - Over the decades, I have helped with pistol selection for countless female/shooters with smaller hands/older shooters with hand strength issues and like most of us "male" shooters with larger hands and greater hand strength who prefer to shoot fullsize/larger pistols that produce less snappy felt recoil, I have found they too prefer fullsize/larger pistols that produce less snappy felt recoil like 5" 1911, Glock 17/22, M&P 9/40/45 (With smaller grip inserts), etc. over smaller compact/subcompacts (With the exception of Glock 19/23 that seem to "tame" the recoil shock transmission to hands).

As to muzzle blast, perceived muzzle bark may have more to do with velocity of bullet than caliber and shooting indoors vs outdoors. (Shooting at indoor ranges really accentuates muzzle blast)

I provided/shared quite a bit of fast defensive point shooting instruction/training to family/friends/neighbors/coworkers and their friends and family over the decades and used 40-9mm conversion barrels and lighter recoiling 40S&W target reloads to lessen the felt recoil/muzzle blast issues so shooters could better focus on shooting technique/producing POI on POA.

In recent years, I have added GSG 1911 22LR (Same as Sig 1911 22LR) to help with 5" Sig 1911 training and more recently added Advantage Arms 22LR slide kit for Glock 22 that have been well received by shooters and training readily transitioned to 9mm/40S&W/45ACP pistols (Same for using CMMG 22LR conversion bolts for ARs). At some point, I found as shooters transition from focusing on the gun/recoil/muzzle blast to focusing on producing holes on target, they become less affected by recoil/muzzle blast.

 

[Jonny2guns]

My wife who is very sensitive to recoil and muzzle blast would only shoot a Smith 22 compact, she tried a wide range of mid-full size 9mm and 45 auto but nothing worked for several years. One day she saw a Sig 365 similar to mine (she won't shoot mine) and that was it, that's what she shoots.
Now, as for the muzzle blast, we shoot outside, she does not like indoor ranges.

 

[ShadyGrove]

I do not enjoy shooting short barreled 380Auto/9mm/40S&W/45ACP subcompacts that produce sharper recoil snap with louder muzzle bark. I prefer longer barreled fullsize/compact pistols that produce lesser felt recoil and quieter muzzle bark.

So why do we keep forcing our wives and girlfriends with smaller hands more sensitive to muzzle blast to shoot such pistols?

(FYI - Military service, shooting guns, exposure to loud noise like operating machinery/yard equipment/listening to music, etc. above 96 decibels without proper hearing protection will lead to higher frequency/hearing loss and make us less sensitive to muzzle blast )

Regarding recoil - Over the decades, I have helped with pistol selection for countless female/shooters with smaller hands/older shooters with hand strength issues and like most of us "male" shooters with larger hands and greater hand strength who prefer to shoot fullsize/larger pistols that produce less snappy felt recoil, I have found they too prefer fullsize/larger pistols that produce less snappy felt recoil like 5" 1911, Glock 17/22, M&P 9/40/45 (With smaller grip inserts), etc. over smaller compact/subcompacts (With the exception of Glock 19/23 that seem to "tame" the recoil shock transmission to hands).

As to muzzle blast, perceived muzzle bark may have more to do with velocity of bullet than caliber and shooting indoors vs outdoors. (Shooting at indoor ranges really accentuate muzzle blast)

I provided/shared quite a bit of fast defensive point shooting instruction/training to family/friends/neighbors/coworkers and their friends and family over the decades and used 40-9mm conversion barrels and lighter recoiling 40S&W target reloads to lessen the felt recoil/muzzle blast issues so shooters could better focus on shooting technique/producing POI on POA.

In recent years, I have added GSG 1911 22LR (Same as Sig 1911 22LR) to help with 5" Sig 1911 training and more recently added Advantage Arms 22LR slide kit for Glock 22 that have been well received by shooters and training readily transitioned to 9mm/40S&W/45ACP pistols (Same for using CMMG 22LR conversion bolts for ARs).

I appreciate the reply. It sounds like the 9mm 1911 might be a good choice. Single stack so it would fit her smaller hands, and good heft to absorb recoil. Would 147gr. 9mm at subsonic speed produce less muzzle blast than 115 gr rounds? I primarily shoot revolvers so i'm not too familiar with 9mm ammo choices.

 

[ShadyGrove]

My wife who is very sensitive to recoil and muzzle blast would only shoot a Smith 22 compact, she tried a wide range of mid-full size 9mm and 45 auto but nothing worked for several years. One day she saw a Sig 365 similar to mine (she won't shoot mine) and that was it, that's what she shoots.
Now, as for the muzzle blast, we shoot outside, she does not like indoor ranges.

I also dislike indoor ranges. We shoot at an outdoor range, but there is a tin roof overhang that tends to reflect the sound back somewhat.

 

[LiveLife]

Would 147gr. 9mm at subsonic speed produce less muzzle blast than 115 gr rounds? I primarily shoot revolvers so i'm not too familiar with 9mm ammo choices.

Yes, along with much "tamed" felt recoil.

GSG 1911 22LR/Glock 22 with AA 22LR slide kit shooting high velocity ammunition will produce sharper muzzle bark (In terms of noise) than Sig 1911 45ACP/Glock 22 with 40-9mm conversion barrel shooting subsonic ammunition.

For softest and quietest shooting practice, GSG 1911 22LR or Glock 17/22 with AA 22LR slide kit shooting subsonic ammunition (BTW, CCI SV reliably cycled the slide of AA 22LR kit but Norma Tac-22 did not)

 

[chicharrones]

Hmmm.

A 5" barreled 9mm 1911 sure is soft shooting and has an easy to rack the slide. Plus, thin grip panels can be installed if you install thin grip bushings (for smaller hands).

Yet, this makes me think of the smaller and lighter locked breech Browning 1911-380. I've never fired one, but I've thought of getting one for my 5'1" wife for quite some time.

 

[ShadyGrove]

Hmmm.

A 5" barreled 9mm 1911 sure is soft shooting and has an easy to rack the slide. Plus, thin grip panels can be installed if you install thin grip bushings (for smaller hands).

Yet, this makes me think of the smaller and lighter locked breech Browning 1911-380. I've never fired one, but I've thought of getting one for my 5'1" wife for quite some time.

Funny you should mention the Browning 1911 380, I was thinking that might be a great choice for my wife as well. 4.25 barrel, locked breech, single stack. However the reviews seem to be mixed, and I feel the price is a bit outrageous for what it is. Great looking gun though.

 

[Ethan Verity]

Hmmm.

A 5" barreled 9mm 1911 sure is soft shooting and has an easy to rack the slide. Plus, thin grip panels can be installed if you install thin grip bushings (for smaller hands).

Yet, this makes me think of the smaller and lighter locked breech Browning 1911-380. I've never fired one, but I've thought of getting one for my 5'1" wife for quite some time.

Those are really cool! The "full size" 1911 proportions are maintained, just shrunk down to match a 380 cartridge.

 

[shoobe01]

Velocity makes noise, and straight blowbacks often let enough gas escape from the action that they are noisier yet. .380s and .22s can be very very loud but sometimes gun dependent.

I agree 9 mm is the choice. Wide variety of loads that help you pick one less unpleasant for recoil and noise/flash. But barrel length really helps also. I know outside pistol, but for example by the time you get to 16" 9 mm might as well be suppressed it is so quiet and calm. Seems to be similar for even going to 5" barrels. I have the long M&P, among my many 9 mm guns, and it's a very calm shooting gun in many ways, very very fast with the RDS up top.

Find something that fits the hand well in the LGS and see what long-barreled one they offer. Glock, for example, has mid (34) and long (17L) models that are pretty neat for range use if you (well, she) likes the Glock fit.

 

[WYO]

To compare as many apples to oranges as suggested by the OP would be quite an undertaking and require actually shooting a large number of .380s and larger caliber firearms. That’s a great idea if one can get their hands on a large number of guns for testing. I recently undertook an apples to apples comparison of a Sig P356 9mm versus a Sig P365-380. Both have the same 3.1 inch barrel lengths. I fired high quality factory ammo in each. The 124 grain standard pressure 9mm Speer Gold Dots had substantially more recoil and substantially slower split times than anything I fired in the .380 version. This included shooting Underwood 68 grain XD rounds averaging 1273 fps muzzle velocity out of the .380. (These had more blast and recoil than other .380 ammo but still were relatively mild. Any issues with it should be more of a mindset issue than a real one.) Shooting standard 90 grain loads out of the .380 in the low to mid 900s out of the Sig .380, a Glock 42 and a S&W EZ .380 is the closest I can come in a centerfire to a .22 LR. Mild handloads are very fun to shoot out of these. The G42 and the Sig .380 always bring a smile.

I can’t answer whether a heavier gun in a more powerful cartridge will work better. But, remember that the pressure generated by the cartridge will require have to be enough to overcome the mass of the slide and the weight of the recoil spring. Although I did not compare them side by side, I can say without a doubt that the Sig .380, Glock 42 and EZ .380 also recoil much less than a Sig P365 XL 9mm with the longer 3.8 inch barrel.

I’d start someone with a .380 and go from there. Try a move up if the person shoots a lot and enjoys it. Note that I am talking about .380s in the mid-size range, not things like LCPs.

 

[LiveLife]

I’d start someone with a .380 and go from there ... Note that I am talking about .380s in the mid-size range

Since OP is trying to "tame" the recoil/muzzle blast issues for wife, we need to also consider firearm design.

Often, many simply think about cartridge size (.380Auto vs 9mm) then correlate to pistol selection (I mean smaller lower pressure .380Auto should be easier to shoot then higher pressure 9mm? ) and that is not the proper approach. Most 380Auto, even mid-sized, are blowback design which depend on the mass of slide and force of recoil spring to hold cartridge in battery. This "blowback" design results in abrupt/snappy recoil hence why there are no blowback 9mm/40S&W/45ACP other than Hi-Point pistols with massive slides.

In contrast, modern firearm design progressed and now mostly use locked breech that delays recoil of slide after bullet has exited the barrel and pressure drops. When I was shooting USPSA, I was curious how .380Auto Russian Makarov would do running the same stage compared to my match Glock 22 shooting major power factor reloads and to my surprise, "mid sized" Makarov was all over the place from harsh recoil that deviated front sight away from POA. In comparison, I was able to manage fast double taps with my G22 using major PF loads and maintain front sight on POA.

So if we are looking to tame snappy felt recoil, we should be starting with full size locked breech pistols in .380/9mm and moving from there to see how much we can/want to sacrifice in comfort.

 

[Dave DeLaurant]

The way I would go about this is to visit a range that offers rental handguns, and have your wife practice working the slides of various handguns before doing any shooting. If your local range doesn't offer rentals, try this at an LGS. A difficult to rack slide should be the deal-breaker for someone with limited hand strength. Find the gun she can operate comfortably and then find a suitably civilized ammo for it.

 

[WYO]

Often, many simply think about cartridge size (.380Auto vs 9mm) then correlate to pistol selection (I mean smaller lower pressure .380Auto should be easier to shoot then higher pressure 9mm? ) and that is not the proper approach. Most 380Auto, even mid-sized, are blowback design which depend on the mass of slide and force of recoil spring to hold cartridge in battery. This "blowback" design results in abrupt/snappy recoil hence why there are no blowback 9mm/40S&W/45ACP other than Hi-Point pistols with massive slides.

In contrast, modern firearm design progressed and now mostly use locked breech that delays recoil of slide after bullet has exited the barrel and pressure drops. When I was shooting USPSA, I was curious how .380Auto Russian Makarov would do running the same stage compared to my match Glock 22 shooting major power factor reloads and to my surprise, "mid sized" Makarov was all over the place from harsh recoil that deviated front sight away from POA. In comparison, I was able to manage fast double taps with my G22 using major PF loads and maintain front sight on POA.

I wouldn't touch a blowback in .380. I don't like those. They definitely are harsh. Most of the more modern stuff is locked breach. That certainly is the case of the guns I cited in my post.

 

[LiveLife]

I wouldn't touch a blowback in .380. I don't like those. They definitely are harsh. Most of the more modern stuff is locked breach. That certainly is the case of the guns I cited in my post.

If OP reloads, could download 9mm to just cycle the slide and even use lighter recoil spring to cycle the slide with less recoil/muzzle blast loads.

I load 115 gr FMJ/RN bullets with 4.1-4.2 gr of Promo and it is light recoiling load that is pleasant to shoot even in subcompact M&P Shield 9mm (4.4-4.5 gr of Promo is more similar to Winchester/Federal white box ammunition) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/anyone-using-red-dot-in-9mm.894187/#post-12040827

 

[ShadyGrove]

Thanks for all the helpful replies.

Yes, I have heard a lot about the snappy recoil (and heavy, hard to rack recoil springs) on blowback 380's. Shame because I always thought that guns like the PPK and Beretta Cheetah were really nice looking, classic firearms.

As far as 380's go, we have generally been looking at the aforementioned Browning 1911 380 (although I have trouble justifying the price tag), the new Ruger Security 380, the Glock 42, and the S&W EZ 380.

The Security 380 seems like a great buy, current MSRP is only $369, its a locked breech, and 15 round capacity.

If we go with a 9mm, it would have to be something big and heavy like a 1911.

I guess my ideal comparison would be locked breech 380 with 3.5 barrel (at 21k chamber pressure), side by side with a full size 9mm with a 5 inch barrel (at 35k chamber pressure) and see which one had the milder report/blast wave with standard target ammo. I'm thinking I am probably splitting hairs here, and any difference would probably be too minor to perceive while wearing both plugs and muffs and shooting at an outdoor range. In which case the 9mm would probably make more sense due to ammo cost savings.

I appreciate all the helpful advice.

 

[Skylerbone]

A number of full size pistols are offered at reasonable enough prices that a new threaded barrel can be added and fitted with a linear compensator or silencer (so long as your home State allows). With easily swapped grip panels for differing hand sizes and a longer, lighter recoil spring, I imagine the possibilities are plentiful.

 

[jar]

Some ideas.

Rock Island Armory Baby Rock 380. Just slightly smaller but also slightly heavier than the Browning 380. Also a whole bunch less expensive. Sarco has it on sale right now.

Other 380s I own that are not hard to rack, shoot or maintain are:

S&W 380EZ and Walther CCP M2 380. They are both compact rather than micro sized, recoil kinda like a 22LR with 8 round magazine. The S&W is hammer fired while the Walther is striker.

The Ruger Security 380 Lite Rack. Also compact rather than micro, hammer fired and in most states comes with one 10 & one 15 round magazine.

 

[Dudedog]

I appreciate the reply. It sounds like the 9mm 1911 might be a good choice

9mm in a full size 1911 is a softshooter. Loads of fun IMO
My favorite range toy and my match gun are 9mm 1911s.

 

[chicharrones]

Some ideas.

Rock Island Armory Baby Rock 380. Just slightly smaller but also slightly heavier than the Browning 380. Also a whole bunch less expensive. Sarco has it on sale right now.

Blowback action of the RIA vs. the locked breech of the Browning.

It sure would be nice to do a side by side shooting comparison.

https://gunblast.com/RIA-BabyRock380.htm

 

[Tallball]

My full-sized 9mm 1911 is easy to shoot. My locked-breech Colt Government Model in 380 is noticeably softer. My daughter doesn't like muzzle blast or recoil and was shooting it when she was ten or so.

My centerfire pistol with the least muzzle blast and softest recoil is probably my Beretta 81 in 32acp. It's an absolute joy to shoot. A dozen or more rounds (I forget) of 32acp is nothing to sneeze at. Mine is very accurate and a lot of fun to shoot. A 32acp may not be the OP's desired end result, but it could be a step in the right direction. My daughter gradually went from 22 to 32, and then eventually to 380. I never rushed her.

Beretta Model 81 32acp

• Tallball
• Aug 22, 2019

 

[hso]

Reduced blast training rounds are available.

 

[JDeere]

Nothing less than 9mm. My wife had a Micro 9, SR 1911 officer and now carries a 365XL and is quite pleased with it...

 

[doubleh]

When my oldest GG daughter was 13 years old she was shooting my full sized 9mm 1911 and she is a small person. The full sized 1911 is just a big 'ol lovable pussycat in 9 mill. I don't understand the muzzle blasst thing with good hearing protection. Something like 357 mag, yes, 9 mm, no. If on an indoors range I might but not outside, even under a tin roof.

 

[Skribs]

In my opinion, the amount of perceived recoil is more important than the muzzle blast. It is much more pleasant to shoot a full-size pistol in 9mm than a pocket pistol in .380.

I don't personally own any .22s. My 9mm 1911 is my "new shooter" gun when I'm bringing someone to the range.