A question about difference in recoil / ammunition types

[kdave21]

Okay learning as I go about different aspects of firearms, so forgive the ignorance, but if I dont ask I cant learn.

I have shot a 30-30 Winchester before, and to me it had a good amount of kick/recoil to it. Not as much as a 12 gauge shotgun, but more than I expected.

I have seen several posts on THR that state a .30 cal M1 Carbine has a light kick or recoil.

Based on the research I have done (wikipedia), the 30-30 cartridge and the .30 carbine cal cartridge are basically the same size. (.309 verses .308), so why the difference in recoil?

I am assuming that it has to do with the action (not bullet size), and that the action of the M1 absorbs alot of the recoil in order to cycle the next round. However I would like someone to confirm this and give me more info.

I am asking for the sake of knowledge, but also more practically, is that I hope to (within the next year) purchase an M1 carbine, but if it kicks like the 30-30 I had, I dont really see it being fun to plink with. Is there any comparison between these two guns?

Thanks

 

[1KPerDay]

M1 carbine has much less powder in the case and recoils barely at all. Get one.

You may be confusing the M1 carbine (.30 Carbine) with the M1 Garand (.30-06). The garand packs a wallop but is still great fun to shoot. The diameter of the projectile doesn't have much to do with the recoil of the gun in question. Force equals Mass X Acceleration. Fast light bullets or slow heavy bullets may recoil the same. Heavy kickers are generally heavy, fast bullets in lighter guns (relatively).

 

[GRIZ22]

Bullet and powder weight and weight of the gun. M1 carbine and lever action 30-30 weigh about the same. M1 carbine has a 110 gr bullet and about 15 grs of powder and 30-30 150-170 gr bullet and about 30 grs of powder so more recoil.

Recoil is a function of the total weight of the ejected mass (bullet and powder) with a factor for velocity vs the weight of the gun.

 

[heron]

The shape and size of the buttplate can have an effect on perceived force of recoil, as well. I read recently that the 30-30 got a mean reputation for its recoil partly because of its narrow buttplate.

 

[Frank Ettin]

A 30-30 fires a 150 grain bullet at a muzzle velocity in the neighborhood of 2300 to 2400 fps. A .30 carbine fires a 110 grain bullet at a muzzle velocity in the neighborhood of 1900 to 2000 fps. A lighter bullet at a lower velocity means less recoil. Bullet diameter has nothing to do with it.

If you're interested, you can calculate recoil energy using the following formula:

WG = Weight of gun in pounds
WB = Weight of bullet in grains
WP = Weight of powder charge in grains
VB = Muzzle velocity of bullet in f/s
I = Interim number (Recoil Impulse in lb/sec)
VG = Recoil velocity of gun (f/s)
EG = Recoil energy of gun (ft lb)

I = [(WB * VB) + (WP * 4000)] / 225218

VG = 32.2 * (I / WG)

EG = (WG * VG * VG) / 64.4

This formula is quite similar to a formula for free recoil set out at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_recoil, although I think that the formula from Wikipedia may be a little more precise based on what I've read in Hatcher's Notebook. The formula I've reproduced above, is from the Q&As at http://www.frfrogspad.com/miscella.htm (specifically the question about why some guns of the same caliber kick harder than others). John Schaefer (FrFrog) notes that, "..."4000" is the nominal velocity of the powder gases at the muzzle for commercial smokeless powder and the observed range is between 3700 and 4300 f/s. It is sometimes stated as 4700 in some sources but this is based on observations of artillery, not small arms...." The Wikipedia formula would use the actual powder gas velocity, which may not be readily available.

At any rate, the important point here is that recoil energy may be calculated based only on the weight (mass) of the bullet, the weight (mass) of the powder charge, the muzzle velocity of the bullet, the muzzle velocity of the powder gases, and the weight (mass) of the gun.

 

[Furncliff]

M1 Carbine round in the center is basically a pistol bullet, running hot. It's closer in killing power to the .45 ACP pistol round to the left than to the WWII standard .30 caliber U.S. rifle cartridge (.30/06) on the right.


You were asking about 30-30, not .30-06 but I couldn't find a pic with them together, the .30-30 would be smaller than the .30-06 pictured above.

Look up the history of the M1 carbine, it's an interesting story. You should know also that there are some handguns around that fire the .30 caliber carbine cartridge.

 

[Tommygunn]

The .30-30 I have kicks but it's not unmanageable.
The M-1 Carbine I have is pleasant to shoot, not much percieved recoil, although after an entire afternoon of shooting mine I did notice a slight bruising on my shoulder.
If you want a fun light recoiling plinker the M-1 Carbine is the best.

 

[unspellable]

recoil

There's a laundry list of effects at play here. First consider the ballistics of the cartridge load. The velocity of the bullet times its mass plus the average velocity of the powder gas times its mass is the impulse of the load. Use impulse to compare two different loads. The impulse divided by the mass of the firearm equals the firearm's velocity in recoil. One half the fireamr;\'s mass times the square of its velocity equals the recoil energy. (Formulas below for those interested.)

For a given load, the heaver the firearm, the less the objective recoil. For a given objective recoil, the subjective recoil will affected by things like stock fit. We heard of a 30-30 above. Likely to be in a Winchester M1894 which has a reputation for subjective recoil out of proportion to the load involved beacuse of poor stock design from the standpoint of recoil. (The stock looks good an fits a scabbard well, it's all in where the priorities are.) On the other hand I have an English "best" rifle that produces relatively liitle subjective recoil for the load involved. The Brits understood how to lay out a rifle stock.

The operation of the action on a self loader tends to spread the recoil over time making it softer but sometimes adds a subjective "wierdness" effect. When I fire a 1911 I am very conscious of the effect of the slide going back and forth.

Impulse of load in lbf*s = ( mass of bullet + correction factor * mass of powder ) / ( 7000 * 32.174 )

The 32.174 * 7000 corrects for the mass of the bullet and powder being seciifed in grains. The "correction factor" is a rule of thumb used because it's difficult to determine the velocity of the powder gas. For hand guns and shotguns it's usually set at 1.5, for rifles at 2.0.

Recoil velocity equals impulse divided by the mass of the gun.
I / ( mass in pounds / 7000 )

Recoil energy equals 0.5 * mass of gun in lbs * velocity * velocity / 7000