A Question About Sniper Rifles

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ahowardmd

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So I'm in the market for my first scoped rifle. I'm 23 and up to this point, all my firearms have been...vintage. I own a Mosin-nagant, an M1 garand, an old shotgun and some old Smith and Wesson revolvers. I'm a history buff. My question is, how does the Mosin-nagant sniper variant compare to more modern scoped rifles? My other thoughts for a possible purchase include the remington 700 and the springfield m1a. I'm mainly looking for a SHTF mountain gun, but something I can have fun plinking with on the weekends. Does the old mosin-nagant shoot as well as a more modern weapon would, with stock optics?

Thanks!

-Howard
 
 
Thanks for your reply. You got me thinking about just building my own rifle using the mosin nagant platform, maybe getting a new stock and getting the barrel drilled and tapped. It would be much cheaper than a remington 700, and I imagine I could get it to be just as accurate right?
 
Eh, probably not. You can pour money into a surplus project and you'll end up with a pile of worthless parts. If you're after a modern optic-friendly bolt action I'd scratch that idea and go with a Savage. It's going to be more accurate than you unless you're *VERY* good.

Or dalv's suggestion, below. CZ makes excellent rifles.
 
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Here's my 2 cents.
Ive tried Mosins. They are EXCELLENT RIFLES...from about a hundred years ago.
Now, they are still good, but if you want one to be a tack driver, you will ether have to be VERY lucky or spend a lot of money. The sniper versions, if you want an authentic one, are not cheap or easy to get.

For the price of what you would put into it, try a Savage Axis.
 
Nearly any major brand, new rifle $300+ will get 1" @ 100 yds.
In my experience, military surplus rifles are doing good to hit 2" at 100 and more often than not, its more like 3" or 4". Wich isnt bad, really.

I like military surplus, they can be fun.....but if your after accuracy, a new rifle will be much better than anything you do to a mosin nagant. They come drilled and tapped, and maybe even in a combo, with a serviceable scope, which you can upgrade later. I would still buy in a "military" caliber, or a very common caliber. 5.56x45 NATO (not .223 Remington / not the same as 5.56x45!), 6.5x55 Swede, .243 Winchester, .308 winchester (7.62x51 NATO / not the same, get chambered in .308 winchester) or .30-06. There are more, but those would be my choices.
 
Ohio Gun Guy said it pretty well. Most any modern day bolt action rifle will achieve the desired 1 MOA.

As to your saying that you want a "Sniper" rifle <<pause>> Why?! If the feces impacts the ventilation, you will be better served investing in a good raincoat than a sniper rifle. Besides, you are not going to go play sniper, I assume. I think what you're really after is a precision rifle, suitable for hunting, target shooting, plinking and if need ever (God forbid arise) self-defense.

Am I wrong, or do you really want a "sniper" rifle?

Geno
 
Just look for a Finnish M39 if you like the Surplus platform, or a K31 for that matter. The M39 is just a dramatically improved and reworked Mosin-Nagant, and uses the same 54mmR ammunition. They're born tack drivers out of the box due to the excellent engineering of the Swiss and Finns, and the M39 has the addition of cleaner sights and a pistol grip to boot. I'm sure both would make good sniper platforms, if you're really set on optics instead of irons.

Although, the K31's bolt makes it difficult to load with a scope mount that isn't offset from the top of the receiver.
 
A surplus sniper can be fun, but don't ever think that it would compare in accuracy to a modern day, heavy barreled bolt action.

One thing you need to keep in mind is the ammunition. Even the "sniper" surplus ammo isn't worth a hoot compared to modern match ammo.
 
Thanks again for everybody's replies; Geno, I guess I would have to say that you're correct about me mainly wanting a rifle for precision shooting, "suitable for hunting, target shooting, plinking". My main goal is to be able to hit targets anywhere from 100 yards to 500 yards, just for the challenge really.
 
Cool! Sounds fun! Check out just about any of the modern-day heavier barreled rifles. The following work well (listed alphabetically):

Kimber M84 LPT (Light Police Tactical)
Remington M700 Police
Remington M700 Tactical
Remington M700 Varmint
Weatherby Vanguard Varmint Special
Winchester M70 Stealth

And the list goes on. These are a few of my heavy barreled rifles, and each will maintain sub-1" at 300 yards.

Geno
 
You could do worse than a Savage.

The hard thing that many young guys, myself included back then, have a hard time with, is spending the money for quality optics. It can be hard choking down the fact that good optics can cost as much as 3 times the cost of the rifle, but you'll be better served to spend the money.


For those who argue against good optics, I'll simply say this. There is a reason companies like Falcon and Super Sniper, who produce very good "budget" glass, don't have world records, like Schmidt and Bender, Nightforce, and all of the others.
 
You could do worse than a Savage.

The hard thing that many young guys, myself included back then, have a hard time with, is spending the money for quality optics. It can be hard choking down the fact that good optics can cost as much as 3 times the cost of the rifle, but you'll be better served to spend the money.
Click to expand...
This. Just exactly this.

A couple friends and I all got 30-06 rifles about the same time. Shortly thereafter we started going to the range together.

One friend got a Weatherby Vanguard, with an inexpensive Nikon scope.
One friend got a savage 110 with a bushnel scope.
I got a remington 700 with a zeiss conquest scope.

Both my friends were happy to be able to plink soda cans at 100 yards all day. I was plinking soda cans at 250 yards all day. In truth, both of them are better marksmen than I am, but (at least for this small sample size) the quality between my Zeiss optic and their less expansive ones was Huge. To the point where either of their scopes would give me a headache. (I've mentioned previously, I'm an optics snob.)

Now it isn't that my rifle is more accurate than the Weatherby or Savage, it is more that I spent more than twice what they did on optics, and did the research to find a good one. Crystal clear, non-distorting optics are, IMO, worth their weight in. . . well backpacking gear. :)

So to finish the story, the Weatherby owner turned around and glass bedded his rifle, and it still wasn't shooting quite as nice as mine. Plunked a new scope on it, and, well, lets just say that I don't want to go shooting against him any time soon. :)
 
...I would have to say that you're correct about me mainly wanting a rifle for precision shooting...
Click to expand...

Then don't waste your money on a surplus military rifle. The barrel is perhaps 90% of what contributes to rifle accuracy, and barrels turned out in wartime arsenals simply do not compare to their commercial counterparts.

Don
 
The K31 never saw war-time production demands, and their barrels are almost unanimously immaculate. In addition, "surplus" GP11 ammo is virtually match grade, even if it's becoming a little difficult to find today.
 
The more costly part of your set-up is not the the initial investment of the rifle. Many folks change the following:

*stock at a cost of between $200 to $500

*true match grade trigger for between $150 and $300

*M1913 rail will run between $130 and $200

*rings for $150 to $300

*scope anywhere from $299 to $3,000

We haven't even touched on a other needed item:

*decent bipod $99 to $225

*sling $59

*hard case $79 to $200

*ammo (wait til you see what match grade ammo runs)!

*reloading equipment (after you see what you would have paid for match grade ammo)

*supplies for loading your own match grade ammo...BIG bucks!

By the time you finish, your initial $800 to $1,000 investment for the rifle, can easily explode to $3,500 to $4,000. Then, you need to start adding professional courses to learn how to actually use the equipment, and those will run you as much as $750 to $1,500 each. So, are you ready to drop $5,500 to $6,000 to get set-up, supplied and trained? That's to start.

Add the cost of a year of practice and you'll really see what ammo costs. Barrel burn-out?! You kidding?! A new Krieger is only about $300! Look at the rest of the investment. Send a PM to Zak Smith and ask him to chime in. He will say my suggested costs are either at best accurate, or at worst low.

Given the costs, I content myself to tinging steel targets and pluggin' varmint-type critters. I can't afford more systematic (professional) degrees of competition.

Geno
 
Ok I am going to be that guy.

Based on your desired usage of 100 to 500yds, lugging it around the mountains, target shooting and hunting, why not take a look at an AR. The AR fits the bill for all of that with the exception of big game hunting. Think Deer and Elk in most states.

Unless you are looking to punch really tightly packed holes in the target at really long ranges, or Elk hunt I would give the AR an honest look. My AR is truly one of the most versatile firearms I own. I can compete with it one day, shoot Prairie Dogs with it the next, and ring steel at 500 the day after that. Min of bad guy is good enough for me.

Unless you just really want a bolt action precision rifle, then by all means get one. Take a look at what Accuracy International has to offer. Precision rifle right out of the box. The expensive box.
Or take a look at the Sako TRG22.
 
ahowardmd, I think I can help you out here with a minimum of money spent on your mosin. First of all, if you want to get something working NOW there is this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CHBuiBkQlo

If you're willing to wait a few months, jmeck is going to be coming out with a side-saddle scope mount that allows for the mosin straight bolt to be used as well as stripper clips so you don't have to make any more mods than to sand/dremel out the channel for the band.

Putting a bipod on your mosin is a VERY simple process as you can see here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Iiyci9_Hi8

And the mosin is very capable of tagging targets out to (and probably beyond) 1000 yards:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bl3JRI75SsI .

So there are several options available to you, all cheap so you don't have to break your wallet.
 
What's your budget like? If you are strapped for cash and just want to shoot tight groups or hit small things from far away, you are going to be much better off with a modern rifle. A good modern rifle will shot MOA out of the box.

I'd suggest taking a good hard look at a Steven 200. It is essentially a Savage without the accu-trigger and can be had brand new for around $300 or less. I'd throw any left over money into an optic. I am, admittedly, an optics snob, so I'll only give one piece of advise on this point. Do not forego optics quality in favor of magnification. In other words, I'd take a top of the line 3-9X over a middle/lower line 5-25X any day of the week. Ok, well two pieces of advise...also do not sacrifice glass quality in favor of "tacticool" features. Again, in other words, I'll take glass quality over a lit reticle any day.
 
QUOTE]And the mosin is very capable of tagging targets out to (and probably beyond) 1000 yards[/QUOTE]

Well said.

Another reason I like the Mosin Nagant sniper units is they have iron sights that can be used with the scope mounted. If it is a SHF rifle this well come in handy, especially if your scope breaks. A $4000.00 rifle with a broken scope in a SHF situation is nothing more than a noise maker. I don't think we will ever see a SHF day come anyways.

By the time you finish, your initial $800 to $1,000 investment for the rifle, can easily explode to $3,500 to $4,000. Then, you need to start adding professional courses to learn how to actually use the equipment, and those will run you as much as $750 to $1,500 each. So, are you ready to drop $5,500 to $6,000 to get set-up, supplied and trained? That's to start.
Click to expand...

He's looking for a hunting, plinking, precision rifle, he didn't say he wanted to win the gold medal at the next Olympics, lol. Put that much into a rifle and you could have the worlds worst shot winning gold medals! :neener: I'd take that $1500.00 for training, and buy ammo, get a few tips off Youtube, and be set to shoot some targets! :eek:

Howard, you know you want a Mosin or you wouldn't have brought it up, I'm going through the same thing right now, I want a Mosin sniper, but don't want a lemon. I am worried that it wont be able to shoot 1/2 inch groups at 200 yards. Why would you need it to do that though? Anything you are going to shoot and kill with it is going to be 150 pounds or bigger. You can buy very good ammunition for a Mosin if you need, I buy Winchester for my Hungarian M44 @ $20.00 a box of 20. Non-corrosive and re loadable. You can also buy 100rds - Prvi Partizan 182gr. FMJ for $62.95 non-corrosive and re loadable. The Winchester I know will give you good results.

The only reason to justify building a $4000.00 rifle is either to impress your friends that you have a $4000.00 rifle, most of them wont be able to tell the difference between a $4000.00 rifle and a $400.00 rifle or you are competing against the best in the world.

I think my friends would be more impressed that I have a sweet Mosin Nagant sniper rifle that might have been used in WWII to kill Nazi's. Of course I'm just a simple redneck from Iowa! :evil:

Good luck with your decision, Clint
 
I have three Mosin Nagant rifles, one M39 and two 91/30s. All three have Darrell scout mounted scout scopes. All three rifles will do minute of angle or better with Privi 150 gr sp ammo. Just for fun I have my M1D.......chris3
 
Birddog1911 said:
It can be hard choking down the fact that good optics can cost as much as 3 times the cost of the rifle, but you'll be better served to spend the money.
Click to expand...
Cryogaijin said:
A couple friends and I all got 30-06 rifles about the same time. Shortly thereafter we started going to the range together.

One friend got a Weatherby Vanguard, with an inexpensive Nikon scope.
One friend got a savage 110 with a bushnel scope.
I got a remington 700 with a zeiss conquest scope.

Both my friends were happy to be able to plink soda cans at 100 yards all day. I was plinking soda cans at 250 yards all day.
Click to expand...
Gentlemen, You are speaking directly to me.

I have been thinking about getting a "real" rifle in a "real" caliber for a couple of months now. I've been thinking about a model 700 or 70 in 30-06 or .308. However, I've been reluctant because I can't shoot sub-1 MOA groups with my 22s, and I don't really want to waste the money if *I* am not up to what the equipment can do. (Geno, you're NOT making this any easier! ;) )

I have decided the problem is most likely with my ability to line up the sights on the target clearly. :( I'm an older guy (46), and I used to be able to see well enough to tell if it was a boy or girl gnat at 500 yards... but alas, no more. I think I need serious optics to do better. (I also shake a lot, but that's another issue. ;) )

Cryogaijin, which specific model of zeiss scope did you get? (cool name, btw!)
 
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