A situation to consider...looking for input

[Grey_Mana]

I absolutely reject post #62 - mentally prepare for the likely scenarios, not the happened-to-somebody-once stories. Telling folks to give up early is part and parcel of the give-up nonsense they tell first year co-eds about rape. Sure, it is possible that there are many rape victims that would have been hurt worse if they have fought back more, but on the whole fighting back 100% is sound strategy.

Sure, there is a point at which you can't escape the black hole of fail. Not locking doors in a bad part of town, not waking up for the phone (presumably the alarm company called before the cops called), opening your bedroom door after you hear people in your house - all fail.

If you are dealing with reasonable good people, they will show restraint, patience and mercy. Supplicating to monsters has never worked.

As a null hypothesis, I propose that there is no statistically significant survival difference for innocent homeowner surviving a no-knock entry by cops expecting armed resistance, comparing homeowners who instantly complied versus homeowners who attempted to resist what they perceived as unlawful entry.

I further propose that there is a statistically significant survival difference for innocent homeowner surviving a home invasion by armed criminals, comparing homeowners who instantly gave up versus homeowners who were ready and able to defend themselves.

 

[9mmepiphany]

You are entitled to reject the example.

mentally prepare for the likely scenarios, not the happened-to-somebody-once stories.

I will say that I have entered a number of homes (over 28 years in LE), based on probable cause, fully expecting an armed intruder/occupant and have yet to shoot anyone who surrendered...but then I am located in CA; YMMV

The purpose of the OP was to cause folks to think about the different possibilities.

I'd be interested in seeing the data that you base your hypothesis on comparing the number of deaths resulting from armed entry of LE or home invaders comparing the survival rate based on resistance versus compliance

 

[45Fan]

Great food for though, could happen to anyone. My alarm system is strictly in house, driveway motion sensors and two dogs that sleep in the living room that weigh 300lbs together are about it.
I am fortunate that live in a small rural community, lived here most of my life, and the local LEOs know me either personally, or are friends of friends.
I live far enough away from neighbors that confusing my house for another is highly unlikely, and getting anywhere near the yard would have alerted my wife and I early enough to have prepared for the worst.

At the very least, this is a good example of why not to shoot first and ask questions later.

 

[Dulvarian]

My question would only be to the LEO's what you would think of finding the homeowner standing in his underwear painting you with his weapon-mounted light, approaching and giving you orders, with his wife behind him with her gun (obviously backing him up, also in a state of undress)? I'm pretty positive that my 'authority voice' sounds just like most police officers. (15 years in an engineroom will do that.) If I heard indications that there were multiple intruders, I would be holding the SIG 556, not a handgun.
Do you disengage, back up, try to sort it out - or open fire?

Back to OP~

First, I'm AD which has its own set of risks and rewards. But I do not want to deal with the kinds of situations described there. The homeowners seemed to be full to the brim of retard. I'm a heavy sleeper... except for alarms, people talking, and dogs barking. Mental conditioning. I cannot imagine sleeping through someone yelling into the house, with the dog barking. And forgive me if it isn't "High Road", but pretty much every layer of that defense and home-owner is failure stacked on failure.

This is why my home alarm is set for instant audible, on a landline. Ten seconds from perimeter breach before the company comes on over the intercom. This has been tested accidentally several times. The company response time is fast, even the time I made it to the console and manually deactivated it with the correct code within the ten seconds. (Usually it is the kids letting the dog out in the morning without waiting for mom or dad to turn it off, or they forgot about it.) A non-response from the alarm company is making me think that you, the intruder have severed landlines.

While my lab is not going to chew you apart, she looks like a monster and has an enormous bark. She is going to be at the door before you, barking her butt off.

Honestly, I never needed anyone to explain layered security to me. The people in the original scenario are a perfect example of failures at multiple levels.

 

[9mmepiphany]

My question would only be to the LEO's what you would think of finding the homeowner standing in his underwear painting you with his weapon-mounted light, approaching and giving you orders, with his wife behind him with her gun (obviously backing him up, also in a state of undress)?

...Do you disengage, back up, try to sort it out - or open fire?

You are assuming that an officer would see pass the first gun to what the wielder is wearing...they would be lucky to note the gender...that is why you hear of cases of friendly fire during raids.

Depending on the circumstances of the entry and the position of the parties, officers might seek cover/concealment if it is available. Forward movement might be enough to tip the scales towards gunfire, in a worst case scenario the homeowner would shout the words "Put down your GUNs"

This is one of the reasons that the common advice here in the S&T forum is to not try to clear your own house

 

[PlateStacker]

One thing that I don't think has been mentionend is:

The story stated that there where "several men" dressed in police gear. I've never responded to possible B&E or House Alarm where I thought there was a threat with less than a few Officers with me, espically in a high threat area/situation. 9/10 if they are LE impersonators, there would not be 5-6 of them.. theyd usually be solo or maybe with one partner. I'd imagine Itd be hard to find a half dozen guys to go with you to break into a house in the middle of the night.

 

[gdcpony]

I think this might be a no win, but I will try. I haven't the time to read the whole thread so I am going on the original scenario. First, before the door was opened I would have my AR. As soon as they demanded my hands, I would say show ID and I'll comply. From that point it is on them.

Bad thing is, that they would have their backs to my daughters' rooms and both of them are armed, as my wife would be by then too. I would hope that would help me out either way. If they have the girls, I am screwed.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Recent headlines have unfortunately provided one example of what might happen...

lpl
=====================================

See full story at

http://abcnews.go.com/US/tucson-swat-team-defends-shooting-iraq-marine-veteran/story?id=13640112

Arizona SWAT Team Defends Shooting Iraq Vet 60 Times

By ELLEN TUMPOSKY
May 20, 2011

A Tucson, Ariz., SWAT team defends shooting an Iraq War veteran 60 times during a drug raid, although it declines to say whether it found any drugs in the house and has had to retract its claim that the veteran shot first.
=====snip=====

 

[Ryanxia]

Lee - that event is actually what lead me to this thread thanks to Sam1911. I gotta say though that this particular event seems extremely improbable.

Residents didn't hear their own alarm
Dog didn't bark (mine would and has barked at entry to any door - fairly big house)
Officer shouting that could be heard from street, residents didn't hear
These and many more flags come up and while I would say this is an exception, how many times do police 'legally break in' to one's home without knocking/proof of warrant.

Call me an oddball but I still don't see the justification. For the few that may be saved, many many more lose their rights (but that's ok Comrades ).

 

[9mmepiphany]

I would think the situation in AZ a bit different as the officers made entry with warrants related to his involvement in a series of heavily armed home invasion robberies related to the drug trade...they knew going in that the resident was likely heavily armed and violent.

I also don't think his response starting with words like, "I've got something for you" is a good introductory phrase

 

[9mmepiphany]

Call me an oddball but I still don't see the justification

So if a burglar had actually broken in, was holding the family hostage and was in the process of torturing/raping/killing them or on the other side of the coin if someone needed medical attention and could not respond...you'd advocate the officers wait for warrant to be issued?

I gotta say though that this particular event seems extremely improbable.

It isn't. As a Patrol officer, I came across many folks who left their doors unsecured and performed many Welfare Checks of folks who did not response to the door or to telephone calls into the residence...to say nothing of numerous silent alarm calls...it is actually very common.

In the best case, they were alive and were just hard to waken, in the worst, they were dead

 

[Fred Fuller]

the situation in AZ

Thing is, I don't KNOW what the situation in AZ was.

Initial stories said Guerena shot first. Those stories were later changed. What other stories might change before there is a full and open report on this situation?

Right now there's not much being said about what the situation was or wasn't. Reports are that Guerena's home contained (aside from an AR-15 with the safety still on) other firearms, body armor, 'an item of police clothing' and a portrait of Jesus Malverde. Does that mean Guerena was trouble? It could, I don't know. Apparently no drugs were found, nor was any direct evidence of his involvement in criminal activity apparently located. Guerena had no criminal record, it's said. How likely is it someone would come home from a hitch in service, get a job and start running with a home invasion gang? I don't know. Lots of thugs and crooks have wives and kids. How many of them waste time on a 'straight' job in a mine, though? Again, I don't know.

Sheriff Dupnik says "I have to do what I think is right to protect the case to ensure that it has the opportunity to progress where we think it should go." Seems a little funny to me he doesn't mention anything about finding the truth, just making sure things go where "we" think they should go. I was a career bureaucrat in both state and federal government, and I think I know weasel words when I see 'em. Is that really the case here, could it be that English is maybe a second language for Sheriff Dupnik and that really isn't what he meant? I don't know, I don't know the man nor do I know much about him. I do know I definitely don't like the sound of that statement, though.

Sheriff Dupnik says the investigation is ongoing. The county attorney is investigating. A shooting board made up of the commanders of the various agencies involved in the raid is also investigating. How objective will they all be? Again, I have no idea, but as I said earlier, I was a career bureaucrat. I'll be interested to see the results of these various investigations and whatever other reviews of this situation take place down the road.

And I'll wait till the dust settles before I make (or state) any conclusions about this shooting. As things go in these modern times, I might not ever be able to reach what I consider a satisfactory conclusion, but it won't be the first time. I've been at this sort of thing for several decades now and I'd as soon not get railroaded to any false conclusions if I can help it.

And I'd just as soon not see this thread get sidetracked into a discussion of these particular events in Tucson beyond the circumstances posed in the OP. Does this instance fit the parameters (You are a law-abiding citizen and have no reason for the police to be serving a search warrant on your house) established in the OP? I don't know yet, and I really don't see that anyone could reasonably state at this point that they do in fact definitively know whether or not it does.

It does pretty well establish that meeting a SWAT team in your home with a firearm in your hand very well might not have a good outcome though, I think.

fwiw,

lpl

 

[Mikhail Weiss]

Kobayashi Maru?

I read the OP and tinkered with the following thoughts on my instant way to unhappy conclusions, then I read what everyone else had to say, much of which I understand and agree with, even those comments which seem to arouse dispute.

Here are the potential outcomes.

Blinding mob is composed of criminals.

1)If you comply, you are victimized. That's why they are there. Maybe you survive.
2)Successful resistance is likely the product of luck. You may be hailed as a hero.
3)Unsuccessful resistance likely results in your death.​

Blinding mob is composed of cops.

1)If you comply, you are likely safe.
2)Successful resistance likely results in your prosecution.
3)Unsuccessful resistance likely results in your death.​

Looks like 2 out of the 3 possibilities in each case are not good, and the only “good” one is remote.

I'm probably screwed in some way no matter what I do, but the “compliance” option appears to give me slightly favorable odds (barely more than 50/50, it may seem in the moment) as opposed to just 1 in 3. I don't like it, but the best option, short of escape, is to yield.

Now, as indicated in the article linked in post 83 and what happened to the veteran in Arizona, this seems to reinforce the idea that police have leeway to make fatal mistakes that I simply don't, and that I should do nothing to encourage those kinds of mistakes, even if that means guessing wrong and getting victimized by home-invaders masquerading as cops.

Once again, I don't like it, but that seems to be what it looks like.

 

[Dr.Rob]

'Right but dead' isn't much of an outcome.

Interesting read. Definite food for thought.

 

[TexasBill]

Because of an unusual work cycle and an unusual home layout, anyone busting into either the front or rear door is going to be in a poor tactical position. I work at night and my office is on the second floor and has openings that give me a clear field of fire and some concealment. I can also switch on a light from a concealed position.

Fortunately, that same vantage point hopefully will allow me to identify my late-night "visitors" and avoid harming a police officer.

 

[Cryogaijin]

I live in a 3rd floor apartment with only one single exterior entrance way, that has a very solid metal cored door with locks that go into the studs of the wall. Further, the railing for the staircase is right opposite my door, not giving people enough room for good leverage. And the staircase is NOISY, I couldn't sleep through 4 booted people walking up.

OTOH I know for a fact my apartment would look like a (small) grow lab on FLIR; I have MANY gallons of planted aquariums. There are more than a couple instances of planted tank owners getting mistaken for drug labs due to the similar IR imagery.

That said, I have no idea how I'd react in that sort of situation. I do have firearms that will defeat police body armor, but I'd be VERY unlikely to use them, due to concern for my neighbors. Further I respect my local Fuzz, and if they obtained a warrant and supplied it, I would comply.

 

[Shadow 7D]

Cryo, I think the APD tend to be more of the 'Come and talk to us, that's us calling, PLEASE pick up'

They know about everybody is armed.

 

[Cryogaijin]

I just had two of 'em respond to my hotel due to a 911 out of one of the rooms. (Due to a domestic in the apartments behind the hotel.) We suspect the domestic was this one woman who had come into the front desk scared about someone chasing her etc etc.

Now, we have security on friday and saturday nights, so he was dealing with it. But when the police asked for a description he stumbled a bit and I picked up: "5'5 or 6, native, heroine addict thin, with a hickey on the left side of her neck, a lot of cheap fake jewelry, including a shield shaped faux silver ring, white hoody/sweat shirt over a dark blue undershirt, blue jeans, and barefoot."

The look on the officer's face was priceless.

"Oh, I have a near photographic memory." And I've been doing this for years.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Because of an unusual work cycle...

Fortunately, that same vantage point hopefully will allow me to identify my late-night "visitors" and avoid harming a police officer.

In a situation like in the OP, I would hope you would have either answered the phone or responded to the knocks or call from the officers while they were outside

 

[answerguy]

Just curious. In this scenario; if I slam the door shut and call 911 from a landline I assume I would get an immediate response like "It's the police in your home". Is that less likely to happen if I'm calling from a cell phone that doesn't show my address?

If this had been a no-knock raid (to the wrong address) would I get a different response from central dispatch? I'm thinking they wouldn't want to share details of a raid in progress.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Is that less likely to happen if I'm calling from a cell phone that doesn't show my address?

Yes, because they would have no way of confirming where you were calling from.

I would think what would follow would be an attempt to establish the residence in question and the identity of the caller

 

[jeepguy]

i agree with post 88 in regards to posible outcomes the only thing i would add is if they are home invaders is the raping, torture of your wife & children if you have any. i am in the same boat as an earlier post in that i have 3 speeding tickets in 40+ years of life. so if someone is in my house their is a better chance that they are there to attack,rob or murder us. as opposed to being leo's. for me i don't open the bedroom door & upon waking up arm myself. dial 911 on my cell with the speeker phone on so i don't have to hold it & to keep it on to record everything. hopefully i can establish that they are leo's before something bad happens. this is another reason that i do not agree with no knock warents(i know this wasn't the case here). i find it interesting, that an leo in your house, wants you to disarm. they find this perfectly reasonable why if they are in my house or property they don't have any more right to be armed then i do. i will probably get flamed for this but i don't see their rights to be more important or less important then ours. my father has been an leo my entire life & still is, so don't think i have something aginst leo's. i also have friends who are leo's but somewhere along the way the rights of law abiding citizens has given way to the rights of leo's & ironicly the criminals as well. why? if you read the bill of rights, you will see it wasn't ment to be this way.

 

[9mmepiphany]

i find it interesting, that an leo in your house, wants you to disarm. they find this perfectly reasonable why if they are in my house or property they don't have any more right to be armed then i do.

From the OP.

They wouldn't know the armed person was the homeowner...after all he did not respond to phone calls or verbal announcements by officers. He could just as likely be that home invader who was holding you and you family at gunpoint when they disturbed his plan with their entry.

Even in your own home, LEO who have entered based on probable cause have a mandate to establish the identity of the whomever they encounter to establish their legal right to be there. Surely you wouldn't want them to just turn away should they encounter a burglar in your house who just claimed to be the resident.

 

[dbarnhart]

An interesting discussion that I'll add two points to:

1. Your car's lock/unlock keyfob has a panic button on it. When you retire for the nite, put it on the nightstand next to you. You may have nothing else, but if set off your car alarm you've just given yourself a tiny edge.

2. I'd have slammed the door used the bed for concealment (and depending upon caliber of weapon, cover as well), grabbed the shotgun under the bed and screamed at the top of my lungs that I am armed and anyone coming through the door will be shot. That would have given the police pause and caused them to regroup instead of charging the door.

 

[Rexster]

This is an interesting thread, that I missed until today.

I have worn a big-city PD badge since early 1984, and worked night shift patrol most of that time. Yes, we are pretty much mandated to check on the welfare of folks inside their residences when we find doors open under suspicious circumstances, and other circumstances that indicate danger to those who may be inside. I have indeed been amazed at the ability of some folks to sleep right through our pounding on the door, and loudly announcing our presence upon entering. Sometimes, they are not sleeping, but engaging in pastimes from listening to music with headphone, to um, very physical relations.