a1abdj - going BACK to S&G 6730 dial lock, need help

[JCinPA]

Well,

I have not had any issues with my S&G 6120 with single battery keypad (purchased in 2005). However, it appears that it is almost a consensus among locksmiths and safe service specialists (and many manufacturers) that while electronic locks are very reliable these days . . . the dial is more so. I got the electronic primarily for convenience and because my wife is basically untrainable on the dial lock (had to get my kids to open it for her if I was out of town).

But, I don't ever want to have trouble with it, and I'm thinking of putting the original lock back on the safe. I need some help, which I understand you may not want to offer here, but I'd appreciate it if you would help me out.

I actually did the replacement of the lock with the 6120 electronic lock myself and had zero issues. The standardized footprint for retail safe locks made it very easy. I'm generally handier than the average guy, and although safe dealers and locksmiths find folks who fiddle with their own safe locks a headache, I'd like to do the swap back to the old lock myself, too. I used to change my own combination and was very facile with this because when I was in the Air Force, we had to change the combination on the S&G filesafe combination locks every few weeks, it seemed, when folks would transfer out of the unit. The safe dealer did not want me changing my own combo, but I got a key from a locksmith in Philly and changed my combo a couple times over the last several years. I'm very facile with operating and changing the combo on S&G dial locks from my military days.

My question is this . . . I don't have a copy of the old combination. I took copious notes when I removed the lock, and kept all parts in zip-lock bags, and have the installation instruction sheet from S&G's website. I have the wheels lined up so the bolt can be retracted. But the place in the wheels that the combination change key goes into is not lined up with where the keyhole is on the lid to the lock body. They are offset by the distance between the opening marker and the combo change marker. How do I get those lined up so I can insert the key and set a combination after reinstalling the lock? Or is there a way I can figure out the combination that was in it before so I can line it up by dialing it against the combo change hashmark? Other than that I get how it works, I know where to put the spline, it's properly sized for my safe since it was original equipment, and I am very confident I can reinstall it. And I will test it three times with the door open!

I would understand if you said call a locksmith, but I'd really like to try this myself, and if I do bolix it up, there are local safe guys I can call to put it in for me, and it is not a disaster if the safe stays open for a few days waiting for the locksmith.

Also, I've heard about cleaning and lubricating a lock . . . since I have it open anyway, and am trying to reinstall it, should I lubricate it? I'm thinking silicone spray I use on my gym equipment rods?

I know, I know, first question is if I was so darn careful to wrap all the parts carefully and store them in ziplock bags, why did I not write down the combo? In which case I would not be posting this. Well, I'm at least a little bit dumb.

This is a circa 2003 Liberty Lincoln LX25.

Thanks very much if you can offer help.

 

[a1abdj]

As long as you keep the door open the entire time, and check it many times while in the open position, you really can't mess anything up that a pro can't come in and easily fix.

I'm assuming you already have everything installed properly, and your only issue is the combination. Since you have experience changing combinations, this shouldn't be that bad.

What I typically do is remove the back of the lock, and line up the gates in the wheels (the cut outs) so that the change key holes are lined up. I then put the key through the wheels, and rotate them together to where the key change hole in the cover is located. You will know when you get there, because the key has a little rounded tip that seats into a dimple in the lock body. You're not turning the key at all during this process, simply using it to locate the wheels where you want them.

After you have them lined up, put the cover back on and change the combination as you would have normally. Even if you had written the numbers down, chances are you would have to change it again anyway. The dial, dial ring, and lock body always have a way of aligning differently when reassembled.

I hope this is clear enough. If not, feel free to ask for clarification.

As long as your parts were stored in bags to keep them clean, you shouldn't need to lubricate anything. In fact, customers lubricating locks probably cause more lock outs than customers who take them apart.

 

[JCinPA]

What I typically do is remove the back of the lock, and line up the gates in the wheels (the cut outs) so that the change key holes are lined up. I then put the key through the wheels, and rotate them together to where the key change hole in the cover is located. You will know when you get there, because the key has a little rounded tip that seats into a dimple in the lock body. You're not turning the key at all during this process, simply using it to locate the wheels where you want them.

Thank you, sir! I think that is the answer I needed. In looking at it last night, with the wheels lined up so I could retract the bolt, I realized the combo change holes would not line up right, but I did not want to fiddle with it without competent adult supervision.

I will report back if I got the swap done right or had to call a pro, but I think I'll get 'r done.

I have been very happy with the electronic, but someone on another board posted that there is a lifetime warranty on the 6730, but a 5-year warranty on the 6120. Why do you think that is? Well, my 6120 is 5 years old, and I finally decided to go ahead and switch back.

I don't know what percentage of electronic locks fail and when, but I have read from numerous safe pros that your "fix it calls" run anywhere from 10X to 20X more frequent for the electronic locks. The heck with it, I'm switching back.

Wish me luck!

 

[JCinPA]

Perfect! I checked it out tonight, the key can be used to line things up very, very easily. You were (of course) spot on about the little nib on the key and the holes it slips into in the lock body. I should be able to retrofit the old lock this weekend pretty quickly. After looking at all I could find on the 'net, reading the S&G website, and just fiddling with it, I feel very confident in getting it back on. Thanks for your help.

One last question. I seem to have lost the two screws that hold the cover on the lock body itself. Do you know the spec on those? It also says not to reuse the old spline, but to get a new one. Do I get one from S&G directly? Or a local lock repair or safe store? Or are they overly cautious and can I use the old spline, which I still have? I have a nylon gunsmithing hammer to put it in gently with.

Thanks again. Very much!

 

[a1abdj]

Although you really should use a new spline key, they are reused on a regular basis without issue.

Take the lock body to the hardware store for the screws. It is not uncommon for a manufacturer to run whatever screws they have into, which changes the threading. Since this does hold up the relocker, you want to make sure you're using the same size that the manufacturer originally put in it.

 

[JCinPA]

Cool, thanks! I figured the spline thing was reusable if not damaged. Preesh. Will report back when job is finished.

 

[JCinPA]

Dagnabbit! I went to Lowes and not a single machine screw fits it! I emailed S&G, they are no help and directed me to a dealer. The dealer doesn't have extra screws nor can he figure out what it is except it looks like a flat-head phillips.

I'm going to have to use a self-tapping screw, I think. I'm not a metals expert, but I'm thinking an oversized self-tapping screw should hold plenty well, the relocker does not exert hardly any pressure on the cover. I don't want to buy a new lock for want of a couple screws.

a1abdj, would you go with a self-tapping screw and be comfortable with it, as a safe tech? Thanks again for your assistance.

John

 

[a1abdj]

would you go with a self-tapping screw and be comfortable with it, as a safe tech? Thanks again for your assistance.

It's not uncommon for me to see safes coming from a manufacturer where the lock cover machine screws have been replaced with self tapping sheet metal screws. This is why I pointed out trying to match it, because the existing threads may not be original.

If you can get them in and they hold well, there shouldn't be a problem.

 

[JCinPA]

Thought so, but you instill confidence. I feel like I have 'adult supervision'!

 

[JCinPA]

Yowza! Took me ninety minutes! I suspect you'd budget a half hour or less for this swap, a1abdj! Luckily I had been inside my door when I put the electronic lock in five years ago, and I've been studying the S&G 6730 for the last few evenings.

Turns out the screws I was talking about were 8-32 machine screws, and I forgot you screw them through a thin metal plate that keeps the relocker pin in the Liberty Lincoln out of the way. The screws for the electronic lock were too long, but I had a couple shorter ones in the garage, luckily.

Second problem I ran into was I must have turned the combo change key in the wheels while fiddling over the last couple days, so when I buttoned it up and tried to put in the combo, it would not turn more than once on me. After much head scratching, I opened it up, removed the back again, turned the key a quarter turn, buttoned it up a second time and it worked. I thought I was going to have to leave it open and call a tech, but because I was so used to changing the combo in the Air Force, and was fiddling with it so much last few days I got it sorted out. I'd recommend folks get a safe tech to do this, ESPECIALLY if they have not been inside their safe's door before. I was in there before because of the original swap. If you bought your safe with an electronic lock originally, and want to go to a combo lock, have not opened the inside of your door before and don't have much combo experience, I'd call a safe tech.

Bottom line is I got LUCKY. Thanks for your help and advice, along the way! Here is the finished job.




P.S. If someone is going to try this, there is a good video on the S&G website about installing their Biometric keypad (pretty cool toy!) where he shows getting the original keypad off the safe.

http://www.sargentandgreenleaf.com/biometric/index.html

 

[a1abdj]

Looks good.

From a technical standpoint, it is much easier to take a mechanical lock off and replace it with an electronic lock than it is the other way around. Had you not had any experience changing combinations, I don't think you would have been able to do it without having isssues.

Not counting electronic lock failures and lost combinations, people tampering with their safes is our leading cause of lock out calls.

 

[JCinPA]

I think you are right about that! I'm glad it works though. As smooth as the day I bought it. But I realize now in hindsight, I was very lucky.