According to an article about the Ferguson shooting

[.40isthenew.45]

What is the ballistic trajectory of a 40 cal bullet fired from a 4-5" barrel? I have no idea and I would guess that the shooter had little knowledge of ballistics but I imagine he would need to hold over quite a bit.

Using Federals Ballistics calculator and a couple of "best case" assumptions:
about 8" of holdover and still retained 65% of initial energy.

Ballistics Calculator

Load Number:	AE40R2	 		Zero Range:	7 yd
Caliber:	40 S&W	 		Temperature:	59 °F
Bullet Style:	Full Metal Jacket	Wind Speed:	10 mph
Bullet Weight:	155 gr	 		Altitude:	0 feet
Ballistic Coeffcient:	0.13	 	Max Range:	150 yd
Muzzle Velocity:	1160 fps	Test Barrel:	4 in
Sight Height:	0.9 in	(may be a bit much for even a Hi-Point) 	 	 


Range (yd)	Drop (in)	Drift (in)	Velocity    Energy
                                                 (fps)	      (ft-lb)
0		-0.9		0.0		1160		463
10		0.3		0.1		1132		441
20		1.3		0.2		1107		422
30		2.0		0.5		1084		404
40		2.4		0.9		1062		388
50		2.5		1.3		1043		374
60		2.3		1.9		1025		361
70		1.7		2.5		1008		350
80		0.8		3.2		992		339
90	       -0.4		4.0		977		329
100	       -2.1		4.9		963		319
110	       -4.1		5.9		950		311
120	       -6.4		7.0		937		302
130	       -9.2		8.1		925		295

 

[MagnunJoe]

In Washington DC they call that a "DRIVE BY" just fire a few rapid shots 100 yards away in the direction of the other rival gang and chances are ur gonna hit someone.

 

[Cee Zee]

keep in mind we're not talking about a dedicated hobbyist here.

To me that just shows how easy it really is to make hits on target even if you just have a rudimentary knowledge of how to aim. It's not rocket science. Again I had my wife shooting great groups in 10 minutes. If you have enough sense to aim correctly (doesn't have to be perfect - just know how a basic sight works) then you have a good chance of hitting your target. I've found out since I first posted in this thread that the guy did fire at a group of people. Again it just proves how easy it is to shoot accurately.

 

[joem1945]

I try to hit steel at 150 yds with my pistols. I do best with a S&W .41 mag but I get hits with a old mod 10 S&W .38 spl.

 

[silicosys4]

To me that just shows how easy it really is to make hits on target even if you just have a rudimentary knowledge of how to aim. It's not rocket science. Again I had my wife shooting great groups in 10 minutes. If you have enough sense to aim correctly (doesn't have to be perfect - just know how a basic sight works) then you have a good chance of hitting your target. I've found out since I first posted in this thread that the guy did fire at a group of people. Again it just proves how easy it is to shoot accurately.

I think you are way off base here. Shooting accurately, especially at extended ranges and while under extreme stress is not easy, otherwise everyone could do it and we wouldn't be so dedicated to regular training and practice. This is a staple of any SD or shooting book...practice and training, as often as you can get it.
This isn't a case of a guy getting good enough after a few range sessions to hit a target at 125 yards intentionally.
It looks to me that this is a case of someone who has almost certainly had no training or practice whatsoever firing blindly at a crowd, missing his intended target (whatever that was), and getting a few accidental hits that were statistically unlikely.
He's a felon. This would most certainly have severely limited his access to training and practice. I'll bet that 10 minutes of training you gave your wife was more than he's had his entire life, unless Call of Duty is considered training.
"Shooting accurately" had nothing to do with it, imo. I would be surprised if he even used the sights, given that it was at night, he was in a moving vehicle, shooting at a fairly poorly lit background, and I presume Hi points do not come with night sights.
In my experience I have not yet come across a new shooter that could , after minimal training, start hitting a torso size target regularly at 125 yards with a handgun.

On a good day, I can put 3 of 4 onto a milk jug at 100 yards with a p229, rested. I'm not an amazing shot, but I'm not what I'd consider a novice.

 

[gspn]

I know I can't hit 2 out of 3 at 125 yards with a pistol (because I don't practice at that distance) while standing still

I think you might be overestimating the level of difficulty. The first time I ever attempted 100 yard shooting with a pistol I hit 4 out of 5 on a 10 inch plate...and I do not consider myself to be a great pistol shot.

We were shooting with a friend when he pulled out a .40 cal pistol and began banging steel at 100. I asked him what the holdover was and he said none...just cover the target with the front sight. Sure enough, 4 out of 5 clanged the target.

Next I tried the same sight picture with my 230 grain .45 ACP's. They were hitting in the dirt maybe 25 yards short of the target. The .40 is just a flat shooting round.

Now add to the mix that he was shooting into a crowd of sorts...it's not as hard as you'd think to score hits.

I'm very glad nobody was killed.

 

[jrmiddleton425]

From reading the previous posts, it appears that this line of police officers was 35 yards long. Assuming a man six feet tall, you are trying to hit an area target the size of a small house. If bullet drop is less than about four feet at 100 yards, if you hold on a man's body, someone is going to get hit.

 

[Cee Zee]

In my experience I have not yet come across a new shooter that could , after minimal training, start hitting a torso size target regularly at 125 yards with a handgun.

He fired into a crowd apparently and got a couple of hits in. And I disagree that minimal training isn't enough to get someone on target at 125 yards. Maybe not everyone can pick it up that quickly but some certainly can. The right stance, the right grip, the right trigger pull and the right aim and that's all there is to it pretty much. My wife hitting a small water bottle at 25 yards would not be that much different than someone hitting a man at 125 yards. Bullets generally keep flying pretty straight until they run out of power or the wind blows them off track. A 180 gr. .40 bullet isn't likely to get blown around a lot in 125 yards. And that leaves bullet drop which as the chart shows above that there should have been about a 9" drop at that distance. Many people might get that right by accident by just not knowing how to aim their pistol correctly.

I'll get my wife outside maybe tomorrow when it's warm and have her shoot at a target 125 yards away and see how she does. She may not have time but I'll try. I'll let you know how it goes. She'll be shooting a .22 so that's about out of range without a whole lot of guesswork on the holdover. I'll have her try a 100 yard test too. That should tell us what we want to know. She picked it up pretty quick but she's a pretty smart person. But she has never really done much shooting in her life. She used to shoot a .22 rifle some but that's been a while. She just hasn't been interested until lately.

 

[Tirod]

I don't think anyone is saying the shooter was any good at it, or that a new shooter would be.

On the other hand, experienced shooters should be able to do so. The issue there is defining "experienced", and another issue is whether handgun ammo will even reach that far.

Nonetheless this shooter firing randomly at a crowd did hit two LEO's.

Handgun sights aren't known for long distance accuracy, it's a known trait close and quick sight acquisition is the goal. But, in the day, they have been equipped with target sights, and shooters have attempted longer ranges. It's the current focus on 21 foot drills that has shortened our perspective.

Move into a cartridge that can reach out consistently with less bullet drop and a lot of the difficulty is eliminated. That is exactly why so many endorse "flatter shooting" ammo, because it involves less skill in doping out holdover. If a cartridge that fires with a point blank range of 100m is chosen, then it will likely hit the target a lot more than one that has feet of drop.

This is where some legislators would like to draw a line in the sand and ban what can be fired in handguns as ammo, as the newer applications have them thinking it can be another incremental step in disarming us.

As mentioned earlier, the Remington XP100 was offered in .30-06 in 1963. And Ruger has just come out with a 10/22 pistol. I fully expect more simply because of hunting opportunities like MO which offer a pistol season for deer. Moving up to a larger cartridge would have the benefit of losing less game and hunting more ethically.

Does that put 100m targets into a different perspective? Shotgunners in mandatory states were limited to 50m ranges, but with the advent of rifled barrels and more accurate ammo, they now reach out to 200m accurately. The same thing is happening with pistols.

How laws affect our use and carry on "the mean streets" will impact what we are allowed to use recreationally and it's usually not to our benefit or protects our freedoms.

This is the thinking behind the Wisconsin law on straight wall cartridges with .38 caliber bullets for hunting. It forces low efficiency ballistics for a political goal.

Who do you want to choose your hunting pistol caliber? You and your buddies or a state or national legislature? Guns and ammo are always in a continuous state of improvement, it's the reactionary and power hungry who demand that things be frozen in time to force our acquiescence.

Let's be open minded about what constitutes pistol caliber ammo and what ranges it can be shot. There's a lot more to it than a showdown at High Noon.

 

[benEzra]

A 2MOA weapon - which isn't something a maker would be very proud to advertise these days - will have a 2" group at 100m. A human target is about 18" roughly rectangular for a center of mass hit. Same with a whitetail deer. That means it's an 18MOA target.

You are correct that an 18" target at 100 yards is about 18 MOA, but most pistols are not 2MOA weapons. Most pistols shoot 2 to 5 inch groups at 25 yards in competent hands, depending on sight radius and how tight the barrel-slide lockup is, which equates to approximately 8 to 20 MOA. A 2MOA group at 25 yards is about half an inch, or essentially a 1-hole group. Not many defensive-style pistols can do that, though dedicated target or hunting pistols undoubtedly can.

If I figure correctly, the front sight on a Glock is between 25 and 30 MOA wide, assuming it is about 19" from your eye with your arms extended and is 0.140" wide.

 

[Hardtarget]

I have said for years if the bad guy can see you ..you can be hit. It may be ALL luck on his part...and all BAD luck on your part but you'd still be hit.
We've all read of these improbable shots and I, (for one), always find it almost unbelievable...but it happens.

Mark
ps: notice the OP's line and my sig line. used it from my first post!

 

[RustyShackelford]

bad guy shooting: AR ....

Do not under-estimate all shooters or bad guys in critical incidents, .
If I recall, the young boy, about 12 involved in the AR school shooting in the mid 1990s, hit about 15 of his 17 victims once in the head.
The boy reportedly never fired any live rounds or hunted. He was known to play a lot of shooter video games like Doom.

Rusty

 

[BLB68]

I played a lot of Doom. The skills don't translate.

 

[TriTone]

No different than firing at a tree in the middle of a forest and hitting a tree in the middle of a forest.

 

[Cee Zee]

The plain fact is the guy did hit 2 cops out of 3 shots. He must have done something right (wrong actually but right as far as accuracy goes). We can all get in a lucky shot now and then but 2 out of 3??? There's more to that than just luck.

 

[Bexar]

There's no way he actually aimed at, and hit a specific target

He fired in the general direction of a good sized crowd and managed to hit a couple of people

Yep...I think that's called "enfilade" fire. Firing at a group of soldiers to hit a random soldier in the group.

 

[Thermactor]

Well,
I would not want to be struck by a 40 S&W round at any range.

I'm thankful that the officers survived and I pray for their complete recovery.

 

[HEAVY-B]

Blind squirrel found a couple nuts , in a nut bowl .
Not impressed .

 

[Sol]

Something about a barrel full of fish or something....

I can't remember the exact saying but it applies here.

 

[Cee Zee]

Something about a barrel full of fish or something....

What's with all the speculation about his skill level? Some people can just do it without a lot of training. He could be one of them.