According to Brownells, spring set may be true after all?

[Good&Fruity]

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=21225/Product/AR_15_M16_20____30_ROUND_MAGAZINES

I know when I had 33rd Korean mags, they would not work at first. After I kept them loaded for a couple weeks, they worked fine for a few months. Then, after keeping them loaded for a year, they didn't work at all, the springs were too weak.

The above link talks about one type of spring being more resistant to "spring set".

I know everyone says it's not true, but are you sure? lol

 

[JohnBT]

Brownell's uses quality springs.

You're talking about a spring failure. It failed in a year. Was that a Korean year or a U.S. year?

 

[outerlimit]

Keep in mind they're trying to sell you a rifle magazine.

 

[Good&Fruity]

Yes, but you are missing the point. Based on my own experiences, and those of some others I've read, keeping their mags loaded did seem to cause problems down the road. This was referenced by my story above. While these were Korean mags, they are after all "springs" nonetheless. Spring set shouldn't have happened, yet it seemed to have happened.

 

[Trebor]

My understand is that with *quality* springs, set is not an issue. If less durable metal is used, spring set might be an issue. Most U.S. manufacturers use high grade steel so set is not a problem. But, if cheaper steel is used in imported mags, then it can be a problem.

This is based on what I remember from info from Wolf springs. I don't have a link or I'd post it. (Of course, I could be remembering wrong as well.)

 

[nalioth]

This:

Keep in mind they're trying to sell you a rifle magazine.

Also, I'd not put much stock in anything Brownells writes (other than prices and product descriptions), as they've still got the federal AWB listed as "active" (it sunset in 2004).

 

[Maverick223]

Never a problem with springs staying loaded (and nearly all of mine, detachable or not, remain in that state). That includes Korean 15 & 30rnd M1-Carbine magazines (which have stayed loaded for a couple of years now (save for the occasional cycling...then getting loaded back up and stored again). Springs fail from cycling/use not compression/extension barring a poor design or loaded beyond the design limits (being overloaded in extension or compression).

 

[DPris]

I experienced mag spring set with factory Glock 17 mags, department armorer used to replace them during inspections when they reached a certain degree of "shortness".
Not just my mags or my gun.
There are no absolutes, as far as I'm concerned. Saying spring set doesn't happen is untrue.
Just because it doesn't occur in some mags does not mean it doesn't occur in all.
Denis

 

[JohnBT]

They sound like cheap springs, too. Or maybe I should say poorly made springs. They could have been expensive for all I know.

John

 

[Carl N. Brown]

I bought a M1 Carbine magazine pouch with two loaded magazines (ammo green corroded dated 44) that had been sold at an estate auction and had been kept as a souvenir for over fifty years. I unloaded, cleaned them up and have used them in matches. Proper steel springs, properly tempered, seem to lose power by flexing, not by being under normal tension.

I have had a few springs go weak with pistol magazines over the years and I suspect bad metal, poor heat treatment. Also have encountered one tube magazine spring that went bad when left fully loaded for months.

 

[Maverick223]

There are no absolutes, as far as I'm concerned. Saying spring set doesn't happen is untrue.

A properly designed, manufactured, and used spring will not fail do to remaining under a constant load...otherwise all bets are off.

 

[Remo223]

I don't know why the gun nuts started saying spring set doesn't exist. It does. Whoever started saying it doesn't is just not very knowledgeable. There is fatique, and there is creep. Fatigue occurs when the spring is cycled over and over, creep occurs when a constant load is applied and never removed.

Spring set would be an example of creep.

Now, you might be able to prove that creep is negligible over a certain period of time...but that is not the same thing as saying creep does not exist.

 

[rcmodel]

A properly designed, manufactured, and used spring

True, as long as it is inside a properly designed magazine.

Gun designers understood this years ago, and designed magazines with the max capacity that would prevent the spring from being over-compressed past it's yield strength.

A 7-round GI 1911 mag for instance can be left loaded indefinately without harming the spring. Maybe an 8-round commercial mag can't.

Today, many manufactures, Glock included, as well as many gun owners, are more concerned about how many rounds they can stuff in a mag then how long the spring will last when the mag is fully loaded.

If you download a Glock mag by two rounds for instance, the mag spring would still be good 50 years from now.
If you over-compress it by loading it to full capacity, it won't be.

rc

 

[Maverick223]

There is fatique, and there is creep. Fatigue occurs when the spring is cycled over and over, creep occurs when a constant load is applied and never removed.

Creep only occurs (to any significant/perceptible degree) when the spring is loaded beyond it's design (or if improperly manufactured).

True, as long as it is inside a properly designed magazine.

With an improper design most anything can happen. All bets are off in that instance.

 

[JohnBT]

"Now, you might be able to prove that creep is negligible over a certain period of time...but that is not the same thing as saying creep does not exist."

Did you know that a really old pane of window glass is thicker at the bottom than the top? Yep. The glass ever so slowly flows downward. Does it make a difference in day to day usage? Nope. Neither does that tiny bit of creep you're talking about.

 

[wingman]

Can't answer the question but I do rotate mags of those loaded every few weeks, does it make a difference don't know but its the same reason I change car oil more then recommended.

 

[Maverick223]

Did you know that a really old pane of window glass is thicker at the bottom than the top?

Actually that is a myth. It comes from an era when glass was not as uniform, because it was formed by glassblowing techniques rather than modern poured sheets. During installation the thick side was placed downward to shed water better (as well as for stability), years later it looks as though the glass has actually been displaced, when in reality it has always been in that state (otherwise the lenses in old telescopic devices would not have retained their shape).

 

[Remo223]

True, as long as it is inside a properly designed magazine.

Gun designers understood this years ago, and designed magazines with the max capacity that would prevent the spring from being over-compressed past it's yield strength.

A 7-round GI 1911 mag for instance can be left loaded indefinately without harming the spring. Maybe an 8-round commercial mag can't.

Today, many manufactures, Glock included, as well as many gun owners, are more concerned about how many rounds they can stuff in a mag then how long the spring will last when the mag is fully loaded.

If you download a Glock mag by two rounds for instance, the mag spring would still be good 50 years from now.
If you over-compress it by loading it to full capacity, it won't be.

rc

creep and yield are not the same thing

 

[nalioth]

Did you know that a really old pane of window glass is thicker at the bottom than the top?

Actually that is a myth. It comes from an era when glass was not as uniform, because it was formed by glassblowing techniques rather than modern poured sheets. During installation the thick side was placed downward to shed water better (as well as for stability), years later it looks as though the glass has actually been displaced, when in reality it has always been in that state (otherwise the lenses in old telescopic devices would not have retained their shape).

Maybe not. .

Glass is technically an "amorphous solid". Over time gravity will pull it downward (a long, long, long time for a visual change).
Is glass a liquid?
University of Queensland pitch drop experiment

 

[Motega]

Spring manufacturers say "yes and no" things like oxidation, temperature, and original materials all contribute to whether or not a spring will fatigue. There is no definite yes or no answer, but generally I think we have found that storing mags loaded is a safe practice. Weigh what is more important - being able to load a mag quickly or risking the tiny but possible chance the spring will fail and act accordingly.
In my experience, most everyday objects utilizing springs -toys, watches, etc. seem to be very reliable!

here is data from a spring manufacturer:
http://www.lesjoforsab.com/technical-information/durability.asp

 

[Remo223]

Spring manufacturers say "yes and no" things like oxidation, temperature, and original materials all contribute to whether or not a spring will fatigue. There is no definite yes or no answer, but generally I think we have found that storing mags loaded is a safe practice. Weigh what is more important - being able to load a mag quickly or risking the tiny but possible chance the spring will fail and act accordingly.
In my experience, most everyday objects utilizing springs -toys, watches, etc. seem to be very reliable!

here is data from a spring manufacturer:
http://www.lesjoforsab.com/technical-information/durability.asp

My experience is that very old springs do not work very well. Everything from old stop watches to vice grip locking pliers seem to lose their springs.

 

[Maverick223]

Here and here are a couple decent sources that explains glass in a bit more detail. Here is an even better one...and they better darn well know what they are talking about because they make glass products for various aeronautics use (to include NASA) as well as terrestrial telescopes. The Schott guide to glass By Heinz G. Pfaender is a great source (perhaps the best?) that explains a great deal about glass (in all forms, for most uses), and goes into some detail about the myth.

 

[DPris]

Mav,
Mine, and those of other officers, were stock factory G17 Glock mags with stock factory springs.
Since I only shot that Glock a bit on my own time (was not real enamored of it back in the '80s when forced to switch to it ), those mags were not cycled much more than those of the guys who didn't shoot their Glocks at all other than required department events.

My springs, and those replaced departmentally in other mags, simply could not have been shortening because of repeated cycling.
I'm aware of the theories, I've read the engineering details, I've heard the stories of WWII 1911 mags fully functional after sitting fully loaded for 50 years.

None of which alters the fact in any way whatever that I experienced Glock mag spring set personally, it was known & dealt with by the armorer at my 110-man/woman department, and it CAN happen.

For that reason, I defied department policy toward the end of my Glock 17 days there by downloading the duty mags one round. The set never reappeared.

I'll add that the only malfunction that 1988 G17 has ever produced for me (still have it) was a single instance where the follower jammed in one magazine, leaving the top round too low to be picked up by the slide.

And, this is not dumping on Glocks, nor is it saying that ALL mag springs will take a set.
Regardless of what the conventional wisdom & expert testimony says, I have seen mag springs shorten, and reduce spring tension.
That's what's behind my statement that "there are no absolutes".
Denis

 

[Maverick223]

For that reason, I defied department policy toward the end of my Glock 17 days there by downloading the duty mags one round. The set never reappeared.

That simply indicates a poor design...where did I ever say Glock's were properly designed?

 

[DPris]

I deliberately included the bit about "not dumping on Glocks" to hopefully forestall any Glock dumping, or accusations of Glock bashing.

I was not happy in '88 about being forced to give up my trusted S&W Model 25-5 in favor of the issued 17, and it took several years to evolve to the point where I'm at now re the G17 (have 5).
But- nothing I've said here was intended to belittle Glocks. Just addressing the mag spring set subject in the thread title.

Denis