Accuracy: Spending Time on Things That Matter

[denton]

This post might be a little bit theoretical, but it leads to a very important conclusion.

Variation does not simply add. If you are shooting 8" groups offhand at 100 yards with a 2 MOA rifle, switching to a 1/4 MOA rifle will NOT shrink your groups by 1 3/4". In fact, the improvement will be barely detectable.

Here is a simple example, using powder charge weights:

You have been making 223 reloads that have a 25 FPS standard deviation in MV. Part of your process is a special scale that allows charge accuracy down to the microgram. It works, but it is a very tedious process. You are thinking of switching to a powder measure. The powder measure you are considering dumps loads with a standard deviation of .1 grain. For your particular load, a grain of powder chamges MV about 100 FPS, so .1 grain is 10 FPS. How much will this change affect the MV of your reloads?

Standard deviations add by the square root of the sum of the squares, so the standard deviation of the new loads will be:

Square root (25^2 + 10^2) = 26.9 FPS. That is a small change, very hard to detect.

Because of the peculiar way that variation adds, you will NEVER make a big improvement in variation by fiddling with the less important variables. The ONLY way to make big improvements in variation is to find and control the major sources.

 

[AJC1]

There are people who can and do weight sort primers and swear it's worth while. I'm not that guy.

 

[sugarmaker]

For me the major source is usually the shooter. Most of the minor variables I have under reasonable control.

 

[denton]

For me the major source is usually the shooter. Most of the minor variables I have under reasonable control.

I think that is often the case. If you are shooting a rifle offhand, then I think it is almost always the case.

 

[JFrank]

I'll take a 1/4 minute rifle over a 2 minute rifle any day.
We always start by ( to borrow a phrase ) turning the big knobs first some of the smaller details are best observed when looking for a finer tune when developing a load.
I can assure you that the guys at the top consider every detail important.

 

[denton]

I'll take a 1/4 minute rifle over a 2 minute rifle any day.
We always start by ( to borrow a phrase ) turning the big knobs first some of the smaller details are best observed when looking for a finer tune when developing a load.
I can assure you that the guys at the top consider every detail important.

I think we'd all like a 1/4 MOA rifle. But suppose your objective is to hit a soccer ball size target at 100 yards to put meat on the table. You can easily meet that objective for around $500. Would you then spend an extra $3000 for a precision improvement that isn't going to improve your chances of success?

 

[AJC1]

I

I think we'd all like a 1/4 MOA rifle. But suppose your objective is to hit a soccer ball size target at 100 yards to put meat on the table. You can easily meet that objective for around $500. Would you then spend an extra $3000 for a precision improvement that isn't going to improve your chances of success?

I think you could do a 6br about half that and a 7saum would be more than that....

 

[JFrank]

I think we'd all like a 1/4 MOA rifle. But suppose your objective is to hit a soccer ball size target at 100 yards to put meat on the table. You can easily meet that objective for around $500. Would you then spend an extra $3000 for a precision improvement that isn't going to improve your chances of success?

Not much point in reloading for accuracy with those goals perhaps throw a rock or just buy factory ammo.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

For me the major source is usually the shooter. Most of the minor variables I have under reasonable control.

Me too. Too much time on motorcycles, and wrecking them, running milling machines, drinking, smoking, using industrial solvents without a breather… or gloves. Just to mention the things I remember. The cumulative effects have been very bad for my accuracy. But I had fun and learned a lot.

 

[jmorris]

But suppose your objective is to hit a soccer ball size target at 100 yards to put meat on the table.

At that point, time spent on closing the distance would likely be worth a lot more than going from a 2 MOA load to a 1/4 MOA load.

 

[Dale Alan]

I think we'd all like a 1/4 MOA rifle. But suppose your objective is to hit a soccer ball size target at 100 yards to put meat on the table. You can easily meet that objective for around $500. Would you then spend an extra $3000 for a precision improvement that isn't going to improve your chances of success?

Why is money relevant ?

 

[AJC1]

Why is money relevant ?

It's hard to argue with a false pretense. Nobody spends the extra $3,000 fighting for that kind of accuracy they do it for other reasons

 

[Dale Alan]

It's hard to argue with a false pretense. Nobody spends the extra $3,000 fighting for that kind of accuracy they do it for other reasons

What other reasons would that be ?

False pretense ?

 

[AJC1]

What other reasons would that be ?

False pretense ?

His question is not reasonable. Most people wouldn't spend 3k on a hunting rifle when a 500 dollar one would do. The additional ability is not cost effective

 

[Dale Alan]

His question is not reasonable. Most people wouldn't spend 3k on a hunting rifle when a 500 dollar one would do. The additional ability is not cost effective

Ok, thanks . I get what you are saying now .

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

His question is not reasonable. Most people wouldn't spend 3k on a hunting rifle when a 500 dollar one would do. The additional ability is not cost effective

Well, maybe also goes to why people reload? I do it because it’s just not right to own a gun and not be able to feed it. Factory ammo may be fine but I guess my feeling is it’s like eating out all the time. Or maybe I’m just using a misplaced anthropomorphism. Anyway it’s not just about saving money or just about maximizing accuracy or just about the hobby. It’s all the above and then something else.

 

[AJC1]

Well, maybe also goes to why people reload? I do it because it’s just not right to own a gun and not be able to feed it. Factory ammo may be fine but I guess my feeling is it’s like eating out all the time. Or maybe I’m just using a misplaced anthropomorphism. Anyway it’s not just about saving money or just about maximizing accuracy or just about the hobby. It’s all the above and then something else.

I cast because I am done relying on a system to have products at a time and price I can afford. It's not reasonable to believe my bullets compare with sierra match kings or bergers. Sometimes being able to control your ability to load is most important. Now if I could just get trucks of primers delivered to my house all would be perfect with the world.

 

[splattergun]

In the OP the biggest variable which can be changed is "shooting ...offhand". Using better support, whether taking a better prone position or using a handy fencepost, a 2 inch rifle is every bit as good as a 1/4 in rifle. Before the shooter can count for that factor, any and every reloading factor is moot.

 

[edwardware]

It's hard to argue with a false pretense. Nobody spends the extra $3,000 fighting for that kind of accuracy they do it for other reasons

Oh yes, yes they do. You might not know them, or the Smiths who make $3000+ hunting rifles for them, but that sub-industry is alive and well.

Most people wouldn't spend 3k on a hunting rifle when a 500 dollar one would do.

I'll bet your car costs 5x more than one that "would do."

Same difference, just different people.

 

[Nature Boy]

This is going to be a long thread

 

[denton]

In the OP the biggest variable which can be changed is "shooting ...offhand". Using better support, whether taking a better prone position or using a handy fencepost, a 2 inch rifle is every bit as good as a 1/4 in rifle. Before the shooter can count for that factor, any and every reloading factor is moot.

Well, somebody gets the point. Thank you!

The message is that you can fiddle forever with the minor factors and not make progress. If you want to shoot better, you have to find the strongest factors and fix those first. Starting with the weak factors consumes time and does not produce results.

Shooting offhand is just an illustration of a major source of variation. Controlling your powder dump within a microgram is an illustration of a minor source of variation. What I'm saying is, pick your battles wisely. Spend your time on things that count, not on things that don't. And the weaker variables count for less than most people think they do, because of the special way variation adds.

Do people sometimes spend money getting accuracy that makes no difference? Sure. And if that's what they want to do, I have no quarrel with them. Spend your resources on what brings you value. Don't spend them on things that don't.

 

[AJC1]

Well, somebody gets the point. Thank you!

The message is that you can fiddle forever with the minor factors and not make progress. If you want to shoot better, you have to find the strongest factors and fix those first. Starting with the weak factors consumes time and does not produce results.

Shooting offhand is just an illustration of a major source of variation. Controlling your powder dump within a microgram is an illustration of a minor source of variation. What I'm saying is, pick your battles wisely. Spend your time on things that count, not on things that don't. And the weaker variables count for less than most people think they do, because of the special way variation adds.

Do people sometimes spend money getting accuracy that makes no difference? Sure. And if that's what they want to do, I have no quarrel with them. Spend your resources on what brings you value. Don't spend them on things that don't.

There are only 4 major factors in shooting I'm aware of.
Barrels
Bullets
Glass
Trigger time to develop good discipline. The most undervalued major factor. This is the thing money cant buy.

 

[35 Whelen]

There are only 4 major factors in shooting I'm aware of.
Barrels
Bullets
Glass
Trigger time to develop good discipline. The most undervalued major factor. This is the thing money cant buy.

This is what shooters either don't understand, refuse to believe, or are just too lazy to practice. I used compete a little in High Power and saw some competitors do some amazing things. One of the old dudes, who always, ALWAYS won our little matches, used to shoot his sighters offhand and he competed with a Garand and military match ammo, not handloads.
One of the nationally known HP shooters once wrote that if competitors spent as much time developing their shooting skills as they did obsessing over the minutiae of their handloads, the sport would be full of Master-class shooters.

35W

 

[joneb]

I try to buy components in large quantities form the same lot.
I try to use components that have a reputation for being consistent.
Maintaining brass consistency is the biggest challenge for me, if the brass is not the same your holes on the paper won't be either.

 

[BJung]

I enjoy reloading as a hobby. From it I find the best load I that groups groups better than I can standing, or kneeling. Atleast I have a standard to work from. Then from a high power rifle point of view, I practice with an air rifle or .22lr first. It's cheaper yet I work on the basics. I was shooting my 35# bow today. It's easy to draw so I can relax and focus on my form.