Accuracy vs. precision

[CDW4ME]

The small orange circle is precision, the large black circle is accurate.


At 6 - 7 yards ...
Its nice to hit the small 2'' orange circle shooting casually - precision.
Keeping repeat hits on the 6'' black circle at 1/4 - 1/3 second splits is accurate.

 

[daniel craig]

Funny how the internet makes everyone an expert nowadays. It amazes me how everyone on Facebook is now a Virologist. I can Google, so now I am an expert. One only has to read a few threads on any gun forum to see folks, for the most part refer to their guns and ammo as accurate. Precise is very seldom talked about. Groups of less than 1" MOA are considered accurate. Guns in general, from my life experience with them for over half a century is that they are considered accurate or not. Like the clip thing, life is too short for me to get my undies in a bundle because someone thinks they are the self appointed Grammar Nazi for today. If you want to bicker over the small stuff and talk down to other wise responsible gun owners.....so be it. Not my priority.

I hope it didn’t come across as down talking, I’m just trying to pontificate on two different but related concepts.

 

[daniel craig]

Accuracy v. Precision is discussed in this month’s Guns & Ammo magazine.

Nice! Maybe I’ll have to get a subscription!

 

[jmorris]

The small orange circle is precision, the large black circle is accurate.

That’s the problem with using qualitative words, they mean different things to different people.

That target shows that to you inside 2” at 6-7 yards = Precision and inside 6” at the same distance = Accurate

Would be completely different standards for someone playing cornhole.

And yet another for a microchip manufacturer.

I bet even you would come up with something different for a different firearm or maybe a rifle is as precision as it would need to be to stay inside 2” at 6-7 yards. Could save one money on aiming devices for sure.

 

[Craig_AR]

in all of my years in shooting I have never heard of anyone describing a rifle as being "precise" I have never seen a course or book in making a rifle precise, while there abounds books and courses in accurizing a rifle.

I like this observation, because it highlights the importance of understanding words in context.
In this usage, accurizing refers to improving the mechanical components of the gun so that multiple shots without changing the aim point (e.g. clamped to the bench, controlled trigger pull) have the tightest grouping. From an engineering viewpoint, the effort is about precision, but the language has already been set. No wonder most shooters refer to a gun's accuracy without talking about the affect of the shooter.
As soon as a shooter is added to the equation, we can talk of accuracy and precision as separate aspects. And, of course, old shooters will continue to call tight groups accurate, and hits on bullseye as precise. Meanwhile, we STEM-trained folks will do the opposite.
[Added 7/9/20} And of course we are all correct!

As for contextual definitions, consider the following:
"I am going to the gun store."
"Store your guns safely to keep kids and visitors from getting to them."
"I have a good store of ammo."

Craig

 

[jdh]

For those that need a visual aid:

 

[aarondhgraham]

While I can't do anything about the getting old thing...

They can't make me grow up.

Right on my friend,,,
Right on!

Aarond

.

 

[LiveLife]

Daniel craig and Craig_VA have it right. Accuracy is how far from the mark the center of the group is. Precision is how tight the group is.

For those that need a visual aid:
View attachment 928207

OK, maybe this better explains accuracy vs precision as illustrated by various 22LR matches we had on THR:

• Accuracy is being able to produce holes closer to the center of target (point of aim)
• Precision is being able to produce smaller groups even though holes do not come close to the center of target (point of aim)

So on our various THR 22LR matches, tighter groups that produced holes away from the center of target produced lower score than larger groups that were scattered around the center of target.

 

[Casefull]

Academic’s bastardizing words is what this discussion is.

 

[buck460XVR]

I hope it didn’t come across as down talking, I’m just trying to pontificate on tow different but related concepts.

So many of these posts in this thread from folks trying to correct us all on grammar, have incomplete sentences and or misspelled words( I hear folks quickly trying to edit). No body really cares. Again, all my life I have heard folks using the term "accurate" speaking about and meaning both accurate and precise. Just like over the almost half century of residential house construction, I have heard thousands of folk using improper terms for house/building components. Since I knew what they were talking about, I did not see any reason to admonish and correct them. How many of us have that one person in our card club that is constantly correcting everyone? Pretty dang irritating isn't it?

Just sayin'..........

 

[Demi-human]

So the point of all this?
It’s a nice discussion and all, but from where? Why did this all come about? What was the scenario?

Those are very well accepted definitions, and not obscure by any means.

Did another debate this term with you some where?
I feel as though I’ve missed something...

Edit: the intent here wasn’t to call anyone dumb or take a “holier than than thou” position. I like talking through concepts, and trying to explain them helps me see if I understand the concepts correctly. I’m not saying that you do is wrong or that you should change how you’ve always done things.

Ahh. I’ve got it now. Hey man, whatever helps you get it!

A “Does this sound correct to you?” at the bottom of the first post may have directed the conversation better, but a conversation it was, none the less.

 

[redneck2]

 

[Demi-human]

You’re going to hurt your hand, @redneck2.
That’s why you use a stick, or really long paragraphs.

 

[redneck2]

You’re going to hurt your hand, @redneck2.
That’s why you use a stick, or really long paragraphs

Is this better?



https://images.app.goo.gl/kgGBQvkJdQKwgxiaA

 

[Craig_AR]

Just sayin'..........
Theiyr're...........take that Grammar Nazis!

Since spotting this in THR some weeks back, this has become my very most favoritest ever sig line.
Sent it to a professional editor friend, too.

 

[CoalTrain49]

For those that need a visual aid:
View attachment 928207

That beats the heck out of 10 paragraphs to explain it.

 

[denton]

As a practical point, you can call one dongxi and the other da kine if you like. Nobody has absolute authority over the meaning of words, except that to you, the words you speak or write mean exactly what you think they do. However, if we use those words to exchange ideas, the conversations are easier to understand if we use the definitions accepted by those that study the field.

Another ticky point is that it's muzzle speed, rather than muzzle velocity. We specify it with a single, scalar number. Velocity is a vector, and it requires both a speed and a direction.

Do I care a lot? No. I don't even have to double up on my blood pressure meds when I see it. We're a peculiar bunch: Who else do you know that measures in grains and drams and copper units of pressure? If I can get along with that, I can be happy with the other entrenched oddities of our language.

 

[HB]

Ill take precision. My kentucky windage skills are excellent!

 

[Demi-human]

Velocity is a vector, and it requires both a speed and a direction.

But it does have a direction, point of impact, which does not always correlate with point of aim...

 

[PapaG]

Sittin here eating popcorn enjoying another endless thread.

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

I dont know if I belong in this discussion lol.

I'm almost exclusively a competitive/defensive pistol shooter. We talk in terms of "combat accuracy". I dont know if anyone's mentioned that term yet. So trying to get hits on or in a 8" COM at various distances is acceptable "accuracy", while running around shooting around things and from all sorts of different positions while reloading along the way. Obviously very different from bench shooting.

But I also like to occasionally break out the 22WMR and smack golf balls at 150yds so...I dont know what that constitutes.

 

[JFrank]

Useless Blather....

 

[LiveLife]

I dont know if anyone's mentioned that term yet. So trying to get hits on or in a 8" COM at various distances is acceptable "accuracy", while running around shooting around things and from all sorts of different positions while reloading along the way.

Obviously very different from bench shooting.

Yup, I already did in post #3 of "combat precision" in terms of fast unsighted defensive point shooting vs slow fire sighted shooting

Another perspective is I like point shooting option for defensive purposes and there are "accurate" pistols that can produce smaller groups under sighted slow fire conditions but I prefer to have carry/defensive pistols that can produce consistent groups at natural point of aim even under unsighted point shooting with fast fire/mag dump shooting conditions and I would deem these pistols having reliable "combat precision".

 

[Walkalong]

To me accuracy has always been how small the rifle can shoot, with precision being how close to a specific spot you can put a round, but these two terms mean different things to different people. They both go hand in hand, so I guess there is no wrong answer.

 

[mcb]

To me accuracy has always been how small the rifle can shoot, with precision being how close to a specific spot you can put a round, but these two terms mean different things to different people. They both go hand in hand, so I guess there is no wrong answer.

Where does the idea there is no wrong answer come from? There are plenty of wrong answers, your's is a fine example. You have the definition exactly backwards from what the entire engineering, scientific, statistical world use the terms. If this is going to be a technical discussion the the technical definition (not the dictionary definitions) of the words should hold sway. But I am OK with you being wrong, its a free country.