Why accuracy, not precision?

[murf]

both "accuracy" and "precision" are subjective words with the same definition: closeness.

"precision" is used when discussing a process. "accuracy" is used when discussing a result.

if you want the objective counterpart to these two words, use "tolerance" .

my take on this maligned subject anyway.

murf

 

[rpenmanparker]

I think most shooters (specially those testing handload) or, possibly those testing different factory offering, go to the range thinking of how accurate they hope their handload/factory loads are. I don't think they go to the range thinking "I hope my handloads/factory loads are going to be precise".

Well, the point is that they are actually thinking about precision, they just don’t know it. Any load can be made accurate by adjusting the sights. Making a load precise is quite a different matter. And unfortunately that is what counts.

 

[buck460XVR]

That is a common language definition. I would have thought that shooters would be interested in the technical usage. Not the first time I have been wrong.

Some, like you, apparently are. For the most part, as you have stated, the majority of folks don't ever refer to their firearms as being precise. I, until very recently, had never heard or read anything from major gun manufacturers/distributors that stated their guns were precise....only accurate. Kinda like Motorcycles and Motorcars. In most cases, it should be Enginecycles and Enginecars. For some reason I don't attempt to look down my nose at folks that use the colloquial terms. Nor do I go to my Harley forum and tell folks they should be interested in the correct technical usage. Why is it we(shooters, gun rag writers and gun manufacturers)refer to MOA as a measure of a gun's accuracy and not it's precision, even when the group is off the bullseye? Sorry, but IMHO, much to do about nuttin'.

 

[rpenmanparker]

both "accuracy" and "precision" are subjective words with the same definition: closeness.

"precision" is used when discussing a process. "accuracy" is used when discussing a result.

if you want the objective counterpart to these two words, use "tolerance" .

my take on this maligned subject anyway.

murf

Closeness works but only this way: accuracy is closeness to the POA while precision is the closeness of the shots to each other.

 

[JohnKSa]

Any load can be made accurate by adjusting the sights.

In the world where this is true, nobody would use the word accurate any more because it would have no value.

Merely getting a shot pattern statistically centered on the point of aim means nothing to anyone if the gun/load isn't capable of hitting sufficiently near the point of aim on a regular basis.

...accuracy is closeness to the POA...

No, the way you are defining it doesn't mean that the shots are close to the POA, only that the pattern/group is statistically centered on the POA.

A rifle that, when fired at 10 yards from the target, placed all its shots exactly a yard from the point of aim but dispersed in a perfect circle around the POA would be perfectly accurate by the definition of accuracy you're espousing. The group is perfectly centered on the POA and therefore accuracy is perfect.

 

[rpenmanparker]

Some, like you, apparently are. For the most part, as you have stated, the majority of folks don't ever refer to their firearms as being precise. I, until very recently, had never heard or read anything from major gun manufacturers/distributors that stated their guns were precise....only accurate. Kinda like Motorcycles and Motorcars. In most cases, it should be Enginecycles and Enginecars. For some reason I don't attempt to look down my nose at folks that use the colloquial terms. Nor do I go to my Harley forum and tell folks they should be interested in the correct technical usage. Why is it we(shooters, gun rag writers and gun manufacturers)refer to MOA as a measure of a gun's accuracy and not it's precision, even when the group is off the bullseye? Sorry, but IMHO, much to do about nuttin'.

Because MOA IS a measure of accuracy, not precision. Sometimes that we you were talking about do get it right. Kind of like a stopped clock.

In the world where this is true, nobody would use the word accurate any more because it would have no value.

Merely getting a shot pattern statistically centered on the point of aim means nothing to anyone if the gun/load isn't capable of hitting sufficiently near the point of aim on a regular basis.No, the way you are defining it doesn't suggest that the shots are close to the POA, only that the pattern/group is statistically centered on the POA.

All you are saying is that accuracy and precision are both needed. You just aren’t willing to use those words. I have no idea why.

 

[murf]

Closeness works but only this way: accuracy is closeness to the POA while precision is the closeness of the shots to each other.

no, your definition of accuracy is just sight adjustment.

murf

 

[Milt1]

Well, the point is that they are actually thinking about precision, they just don’t know it. Any load can be made accurate by adjusting the sights. Making a load precise is quite a different matter. And unfortunately that is what counts.

I one hundred percent disagree as I've never actually thought precision (always accuracy) and I think most shooters think like that. Go ahead and make a mountain out of the mole hill!

 

[JohnKSa]

Accuracy, by your definition means nothing because any gun with sights that can be properly aligned can be made to be perfectly accurate. The only time that accuracy by that definition could be an issue is with a fixed sighted gun or when there is some kind of alignment problem that prevents the sights from being properly aligned.

 

[rpenmanparker]

no, your definition of accuracy is just sight adjustment.

murf

What else is there?

 

[murf]

Accuracy, by your definition means nothing because any gun with sights that can be properly aligned can be made to be perfectly accurate. The only time that accuracy by that definition would be an issue is with a fixed sighted gun or when there is some kind of alignment problem that prevents the sights from being properly aligned.

then call it "kentucky windage". still not accuracy.

murf

 

[rpenmanparker]

Accuracy, by your definition means nothing because any gun with sights that can be properly aligned can be made to be perfectly accurate. The only time that accuracy by that definition would be an issue is with a fixed sighted gun or when there is some kind of alignment problem that prevents the sights from being properly aligned.

Now you got it. When you’re right, you’re right. That is exactly the case. Well almost. See below:

More seriously shooting technique is another factor in accuracy. If you pull the gun down and to the left reliably on every trigger pull, you will fairly precisely miss the POA on a regular basis. So technique counts too.

 

[ford8nr]

I always thought precision was what a rifle was mechanically capable of.
Acurracy was what I was capable of.

 

[rpenmanparker]

Some of you are getting to the point. The main issue is precision, not accuracy at all. Poor accuracy is easy to fix. Imprecision, not so much.

I always thought precision was what a rifle was mechanically capable of.
Acurracy was what I was capable of.

No it is not that simple. Actually it is the other way around for the most part. And don’t forget the ammo. Precision is the main issue with ammo.

 

[buck460XVR]

Because MOA IS a measure of accuracy, not precision. Sometimes that we you were talking about do get it right. Kind of like a stopped clock.

You've really lost me with the part I made bold.

 

[murf]

What else is there?

did you even read my definition of these words? in this context, they are subjective. you (colloquial you) decide how close is accurate, how close is precise. your tolerance for accuracy might be sub-moa. someone else may accept minute-of-deer as sufficient tolerance for an accurate shot.

murf

 

[Milt1]

rpenmanparker, go to the forum "Handloading and Reloading" and look at the Post (.223 5/8 group but). Read the first two entries and let me know if you see the word precision.

 

[JohnKSa]

If you pull the gun down and to the left reliably on every trigger pull, you will fairly precisely miss the POA on a regular basis. So technique counts too.

Since shooters don't have built in adjustments to help make the POA/POI coincident, that's a slightly different problem. Still, if a shooter can make small groups, getting them to make those small groups on the POA is pretty simple. The abilty to center one's hits on the POA isn't really something anyone cares about unless the groups are small enough that there's a chance of hitting what one aims at.

Precision is the main issue with ammo.

It's the only issue with ammo. How would ammo affect the ability of a gun and shooter to center the group on the POA?

...if shooters call precision accuracy, then what do they call real accuracy...

To answer your question, shooters don't call precision accuracy by your definition, they call accuracy precision.

And they call "real accuracy" adjusting the sights.

In other words, the biggest issue isn't that shooters confuse the two quantities (whatever definition you choose to give them) it's that they're really only concerned with one--the other being a given unless the sighting system is non-adjustable or defective in some way.

 

[rpenmanparker]

You've really lost me with the part I made bold.

I’d clarify it if I could remember what it was supposed to say.

 

[murf]

I know better than this. Asking this question will only lead to heartache. I just can't resist.

Accuracy is what you adjust when you zero a gun to hit the bullseye. Precision is how repeatably successive shots hit the same spot or nearly so. The size of a five shot group relates to precision. The placement of the center of that group relates to accuracy. Why do shooters insist on calling precision accuracy? Is it so universal a practice that one should just consider the words to have been redefined for shooting?

And if shooters call precision accuracy, then what do they call real accuracy, i.e. how close to the bullseye a bullet lands?

Forgive this pitiful sinner.

your definition of "precision" is inaccurate.

murf

 

[rpenmanparker]

Since shooters don't have built in adjustments to help make the POA/POI coincident, that's a slightly different problem. Still, if a shooter can make small groups, getting them to make those small groups on the POA is pretty simple. The abilty to center one's hits on the POA isn't really something anyone cares about unless the groups are small enough that there's a chance of hitting what one aims at.It's the only issue with ammo. How would ammo affect the ability of a gun and shooter to center the group on the POA?To answer your question, shooters don't call precision accuracy by your definition, they call accuracy precision.

And they call "real accuracy" adjusting the sights.

In other words, the biggest issue isn't that shooters confuse the two quantities (whatever definition you choose to give them) it's that they're really only concerned with one--the other being a given unless the sighting system is non-adjustable or defective in some way.

Where there ya go. My question was simply why do they call that one they care about accuracy when it is precision? Besides me I personally know of no other shooter who uses the term precision at all...with regard to shooting.

your definition of "precision" is inaccurate.

murf

No. No it isn’t.

 

[JohnKSa]

My question was simply why do they call that one they care about accuracy when it is precision?

Because it is well within the scope of the common usage of the term. Because it is, by far, the most accepted term for describing the quality in question. And because, besides you, personally, no other shooter uses the term precision at all...with regard to shooting.

 

[rpenmanparker]

Because it is well within the scope of the common usage of the term. Because it is, by far, the most accepted term for describing the quality in question. And because, besides you, personally, no other shooter uses the term precision at all...with regard to shooting.

Sad!

 

[Mauser lover]

Where there ya go. My question was simply why do they call that one they care about accuracy when it is precision? Besides me I personally know of no other shooter who uses the term precision at all...with regard to shooting.


No. No it isn’t.

I do (although sometimes I fail and inaccurately refer to my precision as accuracy...)! But then... I've always been a bit of a nerd... I'm rooting for you! Keep convincing away! You can't change an entire demographic overnight, but eventually we'll get through!

Just skimmed (laughed) my way through this thread. This is really amazing.

To sum it up... Dictionary.com is not a reliable source for technical definitions... And many people don't really care about precision if their accuracy is "close enough".

 

[JohnKSa]

Dictionary.com is not a reliable source for technical definitions...

What is the accepted source for technical definitions as they apply to the shooting sports?

Sad!

I hope that even those who espouse the use of the term 'precision' as you define it with respect to shooting, are not actually affected emotionally by the fact that the shooting world chooses to use the term 'accuracy' instead. In fact I not only hope that but I believe it to be true.