Accuracy with a .38 snub-nose

[Jbird45]

My father in law has a Smith and Wesson .38 special +p revolver and he has not been happy with his accuracy. It is his carry weapon and at ten yards he can get most shots somewhere on the black but there is always a few that aren't. That makes us nervous because if he ever did have to use it in a defense situation you don't want projectiles not on target.

He uses Winchester 130 grain FMJ for target shooting and I would say it holds a 10-12" group at 10 yards with a few fliers that are off target or not even on paper. I studied his trigger pull and also loaded a cylinder with rounds and empty Chambers to see if he flinches and his technique and form are good.

I know these are not made to be tackdrivers, but what is reasonable accuracy one should expect at that distance? Is there a different ammo or weight of bullet we should try for the length barrel? I would say the barrel is 1.5 to 2". Maybe we should be training at a shorter distance?

Thanks for the help!

 

[Zendude]

At 10 yards, not all my shots are in the target either with a snub in a quick point and shoot drill. 7 yards is a better distance.

Installing A full size grip on the gun might help

 

[NoirFan]

Most 38 snubs can be surprisingly mechanically accurate; the problem is they are hard to shoot well. Mastering the long DA trigger takes a lot of practice. Here are my 10 yard groups from the THR postal match. These were slow fire, unsupported, SA and DA shots.

What you don’t see is all the lousy targets I threw out to get this result!

 

[AK103K]

What kind of S&W? There can be a fair amount of difference between the sizes, what they are made of and weigh, and what youre experiences are. Grips on some guns can also make a big difference.

The smaller J frames, especially the Airweight and lighter versions, are a bit harder to shoot with than the K/L frame guns. Especially if your recoil sensitive. Short barreled handguns in general, take more work and a bit more practice to shoot well with them too.

With anything, its generally best to start up close and work on hitting what youre looking at as you present the gun, increasing your speed as you go, and then work your way back as you improve.

Shooting at a target that is a bullseye is OK for seeing if you have the basics down, but shooting at a target thats a general outline/shape, but doesnt have a fixed aiming point can also be somewhat of a help, and easier. Takes some of the pressure of shooting the not so realistic bullseye groups off of the shooter, and lets them be a little more realistic and acceptable in what they get. If the rounds are going where you were looking when the gun goes off, good hits are good hits, they dont have to be tight little groups, nor do you really want that.

The silhouette targets also give you a better idea as to where you want to focus on and shoot.

 

[Fiv3r]

I carry a cheapie little Charter Arms Undercover .38 snub a good bit of the time. It's got a DAO hammer on it, so I needed to find a load that would shoot well in DA. I was floored by the performance I got out of the ARX .38. Im not a good shot, and it made me look good.

 

[F-111 John]

I put a Crimson Trace LG-105 laser grip on my S&W Model 60 snubbie, and it made a world of difference in my accuracy beyond 7 yds.

With such a short sight radius, it's difficult for my 60 year old eyes to make precision shots with the open fixed sights found on most J Frames.

An added bonus is that the laser will reveal how well you hold on target during the long DA trigger pull. So it's a great self-training tool as well.

 

[bassjam]

I've had 2 j-frames, an AirLite and an AirWeight, and I've been impressed with the accuracy potential of both. 10 yards is pretty far though for a snubby, I normally practice between 3 and 7 yards.

You mention +p, is he practicing with +p ammo? If so, try stepping down to regular .38 special loads at the range. Also, a coat of white fingernail polish followed by a coat or two of orange fingernail polish on the front sight helps.

Smoothing out the trigger helps too. It took over 500 dry fires before my 442 started to feel good. After that, I could shoot it better in double action than I could shoot my heavier and longer barreled SP101 in double action.

 

[boom boom]

This is my personal experience and yours may vary as do your opinions. This is addressing D/A fire and not single action technique.

For me to shoot a snubbie accurately, it is critical to work the trigger back and forth smoothly appropriately like rowing a boat. You do it properly with practice and it pays back even on rifle triggers as you fully reset the trigger. A typical J-Frame bought new can also be tuned to be smooth, not light, but smooth.

One of the most difficult of snubbies to shoot D/A is when the trigger has a hump--that is lower effort, higher effort, then lower effort on trigger pull because the trigger pull weight is inconsistent. Stacking can be an issue but I haven't had that problem with Smith snubbies, while other may have, but Colts are notorious for this. A stacking trigger begins with a fairly pleasant trigger pull that gets more and more resistance to the pull before release. A little stacking is okay if you know what the trigger feels like from practice, but a trigger that stacks into 15-20 lbs of release pressure needs to be fixed. You get a surprise break at the cost of moving the frame off target with your trigger finger trying to pull it via leverage. Gritty triggers that drag are also an issue as is a dragging cylinder. Fortunately, a trip to the gunsmith can make a Smith trigger very much better on a J-Frame to eliminate grit and humps. A D/A trigger pull should be straight back and consistent in pull weight for these to shoot consistently. Older Colt snubbies, unless you find an expert gunsmith, are better left as they are. Newer design Colts have a bit different action so others would have to comment on them.

One way that helped me shoot a snubbie consistently was a grip laser attachment as it showed if the red dot was moving right, left, up, down during the trigger stroke unwittingly during dry fire. Think there are also laser training devices that perform the same service.

A second was a Hogue boot grip that was long enough for me to get my whole hand on the grip. Tucking your pinky does not substitute for a bit longer grip.

I could probably shoot a snubbie a bit better at 10 yards plus if I altered the original narrow sights on my J-Frame to the newer, wider ones. A 7 yds or so, 1.5-2 inches for 5 shots the last that I shot it and about 2.5-3.5 inches in combat time by emptying the five shot cylinder pronto. The laser on mine is zeroed at 7 yrds but I use the laser much more for dryfire practice than live.

What helps me is that a gunsmith slicked up the action enough to trigger cock the snubbie if I want to, which I generally don't on these as I don't want to form the habit on that particular firearm. Beyond 7 yds or so, I typically shoot about 5-6 inches at 25 on a good day before I get tired after shooting a box of 50 if I have good sight and target visibility.

 

[Jbird45]

It is an airweight j frame. Sounds like he needs more practice and to move up a bit. He is using standard pressure loads and not +p

We will try 3 yards a 7 yards and see how it goes

 

[Kleanbore]

It is his carry weapon and at ten yards he can get most shots somewhere on the black but there is always a few that aren't. That makes us nervous

7 yards is a better distance.

It may be necessary to engage an attacker at such distances, but I think it much more likely that , if you reasonably perceive the need to draw when he is that far away, he will be much closer before you are actually able to shoot.

With such a short sight radius, it's difficult to make precision shots with the open fixed sights of most J Frames.

One may require precision in a lawful defensive use of force encounter, but not usually.

A 7 yds or so, 1.5-2 inches for 5 shot

Consider a man moving at a rate of, say, five meters, and that if may well be necessary to hit him effectively three to five times.

That would require a speed of something like three shots per second, and precision enough to hit a small pie plate that is moving at that speed while shooting that rpaidly.

Try shooting a a small the pie plate very rapidly at seven to ten feet.

Forget bullseye shooting.

 

[AK103K]

Just bear in mind, even with normal power loads, the Airweights arent a lot of fun to shoot a lot. I shoot one a couple of times a month with 158 grain loads that arent +P, but they are fairly warm, and a box of 50 is about all I can stand. My hand usually hates me for a day or two after as well.

I can understand his performance degrading fairly quickly the more he shoots.

Do you have anything else thats sorta similar, thats not as annoying to shoot that he can practice with more? In the long run, I think that will be the better way to go.

DA revolvers really arent all that different shooting wise, other than the abuse the lighter guns can give. Let him shoot the bulk of things with something similar thats heavier, and finish up with the Airweight each time out.

Another alternative might be to just switch over to a K frame, if he likes the revolvers. A 2" model 10 or something similar is a nice gun and a good shooter, and you can a lot of rounds through them without discomfort. A bit heavier, but not all that much different size-wise to the Airweights either.

 

[Kleanbore]

My hand usually hates me for a day or two after as well.

Over time, the cumulative effect may be serious, and nerve and joint damage, permanent.

 

[fxvr5]

He could try some lower recoil loads for practice to make getting used to the gun more pleasant. There are 38 Special wadcutters, and for even lower recoil he can shoot 38 Short Colt.

 

[boom boom]

Consider a man moving at a rate of, say, five meters, and that if may well be necessary to hit him effectively three to five times.

That would require a speed of something like three shots per second, and precision enough to hit a small pie plate that is moving at that speed while shooting that rpaidly.

Try shooting a a small the pie plate very rapidly at seven to ten feet.

Forget bullseye shooting.

I can still empty the cylinder in a couple of seconds with about a 3-4 inch diameter in what range that you are talking about in about 3-4 seconds but due to some medical issues, it is getting progressively harder to do it well as well as executing revolver reloads with speedloaders for similar reasons depending on what the day brings.

I still have grip and finger strength verified by medical testing with great muscle memory from firing and dry-firing my J-Frame among my other revolvers but not the touch feedback and flexibility needed to execute fine mechanical movements of hands. The J-Frame is one of those like my Argy HiPower clone that simply fits my hand with ease and both point naturally for me.

I have pretty much resigned myself to going to current big producer semi-auto single stack for carry now which is why I bought a compact in 9mm, the other day in a brand that I can shoot their bigger semi's quite well. Oh well, mushy triggers are not so bad if you can't feel that as much.

My revolvers are now pretty much being retired tor fun and collecting along with reloading and my wife likes to shoot them except my snubbies. She gets bored with semi-autos. It is also a backstop if 2A opponents keep getting their way.

 

[Kleanbore]

I can still empty the cylinder in a couple of seconds with about a 3-4 inch diameter in what range that you are talking about in about 3-4 seconds

If we are content with hitting the upper chest area, a 3 or 4 inch diameter group is unnecessary.

BUT--consider athat the target will no likely be stationary

While it does not happen in the screenplays that many people like to imagine, an attacker can move 60 feet in fur seconds

I have pretty much resigned myself to going to current big producer semi-auto single stack for carry now which is why I bought a compact in 9mm, the other day in a brand that I can shoot their bigger semi's quite well.

That has been my preference for several years.

 

[AK103K]

Over time, the cumulative effect may be serious, and nerve and joint damage, permanent.

Could be. Doesnt seem to bother for more than a day or so now though.

I only shoot them to keep up on them, or Id be shooting it a lot more (and probably bitching a lot more ). Most of my revolver shooting is done with K and L frames. A lot more rounds at an outing, and a lot more pleasant time. Easier to shoot well with too.


Two things I think need a closer look at too are the grips and the lasers.

I know with the right "carry" grips these guns dont tend to be much fun to shoot, but if you want a small, easily concealed package, that you can get into action fairly quickly, they are what you want to use on them. You just need to deal with what they often bring.

I see a lot of these smaller guns, with near full size grips on them, and wonder what people are thinking. If youre going to do that, you might as well get the rest of the gun to go with it, youll be better off all around.

The lasers are something I think are really more of a detriment than they are a help. They may work well and look like they will help you to hit better, but using them on a static target at the range, is something totally different than using them under stress and with things moving fast.

They force you to try and focus on all the wrong things, and have you "trying" to find that silly dot, when all your attention should be focused on shooting the target. Its just something else to distract you from what you need to do.

At the distances you would likely be using one, youre much better served learning to shoot quickly, over the top of the gun without the sights, than you are trying to do it with that dot. Ill guarantee you, youll make faster and better hits doing so.

 

[Jbird45]

Do you have anything else thats sorta similar, thats not as annoying to shoot that he can practice with more? In the long run, I think that will be the better way to go.

The only other revolver we have is my Ruger .45 Colt, which he likes better than his .38. my Ruger is much larger and heavier than his gun though.

My mother in law has a S&W body guard in .380 that even I can't hit the broadside of a barn with

 

[Archie]

I have some experience with .38 Special and short barred pistols. I find they are quite accurate out to 25 yards, but I shot a lot. And I 'adjusted' the sights to point of aim being point of impact. (Requires a Swiss file and a degree of insouciance.) I suggest practicing on a 'IPSC' or 'USPSA' cardboard target until comfortable, then head shots on the same target. Then move back a yard and see how it goes.

The M41 FMJ 130 grain ammo is negligible, having been intended for the all (including cylinder) 'Aircrew' revolver of the 1950s military. The idea of that specific revolver never worked, but in typical bureaucrat style, the ammunition was retained. Out of a four inch revolver it propelled the 130 grain bullet at somewhere in the 700 feet per second range. Considering the regular .38 Special load of the time was a 158 grain RNL bullet at between 750 and 800 fps, the M41 round is best suited to practice. A 148 grain full wadcutter (used to be available most places) has better terminal ballistics. And prints closer to factory 'fixed' sights.

 

[Sistema1927]

It all comes down to the "3 P's":

Practice
Practice
Practice

A drill that I have found helpful is to put a 9" paper plate on the target holder, starting at 3 yards. The object is to fire slow enough to keep all the rounds on the plate, yet fast enough to use the entire plate (a 9" group). If you are firing too fast, then you are missing the plate with one or more rounds. If you are firing too slow, then you have a small group on the plate.

Once consistency is found at 3 yards, keep moving the target back and repeating at greater distances. For combat purposes you don't want target groups, you want speed coupled with COM accuracy.

 

[ThomasT]

I am all for getting the suggested 148gr wadcutter loads and trying them. They are very easy to shoot. I once loaded some of the 124gr lead 9mm bullets I cast in 38 cases with just 3grs of Bullseye powder and shot those from my Taurus model 85 snub. Those were fun and about as painless as shooting 32 S&W long ammo. I need to load up more of those with maybe just 3.5grs of Bullseye. They make really nice practice loads.

 

[Jonesy814]

The gun is capable of better accuracy but it takes practice. You are too far from the target. Start at about 12-15 feet. When you can keep them all on target, increase the range by 5 ft.
I shoot my 638 & 442 out to 30 yards at an 8x10 steel plate and can hit it with about every shot, but I didnt start out shooting at that range
If you dont reload, find some mild 148gr wadcutter ammo. Being able to run 50-100 rounds in a session helps build skill but is hard if it hurts

 

[Jbird45]

The gun is capable of better accuracy but it takes practice. You are too far from the target. Start at about 12-15 feet. When you can keep them all on target, increase the range by 5 ft.
I shoot my 638 & 442 out to 30 yards at an 8x10 steel plate and can hit it with about every shot, but I didnt start out shooting at that range
If you dont reload, find some mild 148gr wadcutter ammo. Being able to run 50-100 rounds in a session helps build skill but is hard if it hurts

I do reload so maybe I'll have to put together some mild practice rounds. I don't have dies for .38 special but suppose I could pick some up.

 

[JERRY]

have someone else shoot it, preferably someone versed with J frames.

 

[GRIZ22]

There is something wrong with his technique if he is shooting 10-12 inches at 10 yards. He should be able to shoot about 3-4" groups easily at that range. In days long past I would shoot a perfect score on a PPC course with a Model 36 or 60 shooting out to 50 yds.

I have been shooting a variety of J frame size guns for nearly 50 years. They are no less accurate than larger guns but are harder to shoot well.

Forget boot grips imo. Get something like the Pachmyr Compacs. A little bigger but they give you something to hold on to. I use factory target wadcutters for the range and as a carry load. Much easier on you and the gun. Move your target closet and shoot slower. Shoot for accuracu. Speed will come with practice. I'm not a fan of lasers for general use although they are valuable in training to see how much you're moving the gun while firing.

FWIW I shoot my BG 380 about the same as a 2" J frame. About a 6" group at 25 yds at a fast cadence when I do my part.

If he can't shoot the J frame well he should carry something he does shoot well.

 

[film495]

dry fire practice. even just work the trigger and watch the front of the barrel. I've done this and sometimes you can see the tip of the barrel move side to side and can be fixed by adjusting grip. just hold it lower where you can see the top of the barrel - no need to aim just observe if the pistol stays stationary.

practice at 3 or 4 yards - 7 is like the maximum practical for self defense, further than that and you are on offense I think. also, you could rent another snub that is the same or similar, to compare the gun's accuracy. maybe shoot off a rest or have another shooter compare.

for self defense, my opinion - is if you can collect yourself relatively quickly, and hit a paper plate at 7 yards, on most shots shooting kind of quickly - you're good. better than that is better, but that's my idea of general practical functional competency. If only they had some type of random movement generator to simulate real world, that would be better IMHO than static targets, but I've never seen or heard of a pistol range with such a device.